Does this seem like a circular argument to you too?

Question

Norm: If Jesus is God, why didn't Jesus ever prove that he is God?
Chris: He did! He performed many miracles, and he was resurrected. That proves that he is God!
Norm: Why did he not prove that he is God in a way that is definitive and scientifically provable -- for example, by moving a mountain?
Chris: He could not do that! That would take away man's free will to believe in him. People must come to God through faith.
Norm: Why, then, did Jesus perform the miracles described in the Gospels?
Chris: To prove that he is God. If he had not done the miracles, culminating in his final most miraculous resurrection, we would not know that he is God.
Norm: I thought that if Jesus performed miracles to prove that he was God, then it took away our free will.
Chris: No.
Norm: Isn't that what you just said?
Chris: No. What I just said is that Jesus' miracles prove that he was God.
Norm: So why didn't Jesus perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain?

http://godisimaginary.com/i14.htm

Answer 1

Kathryn. What have I told you about asking questions of people who are brainwashed? You are requiring them to use reason, logic and intelligence...and that's when they blow a fuse and their heads explode. It's gonna get messy, and YOU will have to clean it up!

:)

I love it when they try to use the bible to prove the bible. The ultimate in being utterly ridiculous.

Answer 2

"So why didn't Jesus perform real, concrete miracles like moving a mountain? "

Or what about a real concrete miracle like putting the mountain there in the first place?
People take too much for granted these days! What is the world coming to when a person raises a man from the dead four days after he died and no one thinks that's miraculous??
Or restoring someone's sight??
Putting someone's EAR back on after it's been cut off simply by placing it back on his head- no needles or glue, just the power of the Lord.

I suppose you want a better miracle like ending world hunger?
What about Jesus feeding the four thousand?
Besides the point, Jesus Christ said ANYone can move a mountain if we have the faith of a mustard seed.
But so many people don't have that faith that they CAN'T move a mountain.
If you looked, you'd find that many great things have happened in the now because of faith in Jesus Christ. Such as, people with missing fingers and toes having them grow back when people pray for them in the name of Jesus.

My best friend was a stillborn. The doctor stepped away, there was nothing they could do for her.
Her father stepped forward and put his hand on her head and said "in the name of Jesus" and she was alive again.
Oh, not concrete enough?
And who are you to say that a mountain moving would convince you?
The creation of the world is put in the Bible and you don't believe it. If a mountain were moved in the name of Jesus I'm sure you would say, "that's not concrete enough.. do something else."

Jesus Christ isn't stupid, He did His miracles for the people who would believe. You think He didn't know that years down the path people would be so ignorant as to ask these questions?

One more question:
Can you, or anyone you know for that matter, turn water into wine?

Answer 3

I don't know, but it looks like Norm and Chris are a little ignorant. Chris is ignorant for implying that Jesus was not capable of moving a mountain if needed. Norm is ignorant to believe that God has any interest in appeasing the scientific community with "provable" miracles.

Yes, it does seem like a circular argument. More like a circle-something else...

Answer 4

Jesus never claimed to be God, he said he was God's son. He performed miracles to show that he was the long awaited Messiah. This was evidence to sincere Jews of his Father's approval. The Trinity Doctrine, which is the reason for this confusion was adopted from pagan religious sources by the pagan emperor Constantine when he formed his Universal aka Catholic religion. I hope not to offend anyone, but this is a historical fact acknowledged and taught by the Catholic Church itself, they viewed the practice as a practical way to make pagan people feel comfortable with the new religion. Many Protestant churches accepted the doctrine along with others that don't originate with the Bible.

Answer 5

It would not matter what Jesus did to Prove who He is. People choose not to believe and that is that. Proof is not going to be found in some dig in the middle east or in some old writings. Proof will not be found in the pages of some book.

Jesus healed the sick made the lame to walk not to prove who he is but to show compassion on those who where willing to believe. Many that saw the miracles didn't believe even though they saw it. So what is the big deal about proof anyway?

Frankly I don't care what someone choose to believe or not to believe. Each person must make that choice on their own. I made my choice to believe based not only on facts but things of the spirit which can't be proved in ways that people are looking for as proof.

Faith is the belief in things in things not seen, and an understanding in things not understood. So again why even try. One person believes another doesn't. The one that doesn't will not change his mind no matter what the proof is. Same for a true believer.

In believing I learned that by my profession of faith that I had to lean what Jesus taught, how he lived and then model ma life in that manner. Treating others in the manner in which you want to be treated yourself. Putting others before yourself, love your neighbor as yourself, love your enemies. Having compassion (concerned passion, concerned love) for others. These are the things that prove a persons faith. When the become selfless instead of being selfish it shows.

Words alone mean nothing, actions and deeds prove the worth of a persons faith. These things are not easy to fake and tell a lot about a person. You want proof of God, the only place that you will ever find it is the one place people are not willing to look. It is found in the actions and deeds of those that faith fully follow the Teachings of Jesus. Calling oneself a Christian does not make it so but actions will prove what the person is.

Answer 6

A circular argument is one in which the claim is supported by evidence--then when the evidence is questioned, the arguer uses the claim as evidence to prove the evidence is true, so the claim becomes the evidence, the evidence becomes the claim, and around and around it goes.

What is Chris' first claim? Jesus proved he was God by doing miracles.

What is his evidence? That Jesus performed miracles.

When the claim and the evidence are basically the same, then it is a circular argument.

Answer 7

Your profile: Read, think, analyze and above all, try to listen to others with an open mind. I know that's easier said than done,

This is a skeptic's impersonation of their perception of a believer. Maybe some infant and not very bright believers think that way, and that is exactly what unbelievers want to hear, but, it is not how a teacher or a leader would think.

Your question is like: Here is red. Is this red?

Let's elevate the debate.

Answer 8

Jesus never said he was god. He did not perform miracles because he was not god, else he would have loved to move mountains and save his people from going astray. It was that God was helping jesus with mircales when it became necessary for his survival or the continuity of his message.

Answer 9

The pharisees, after seeing Jesus perform miracles, asked Him to prove He was God. His answer was Matthew 16:2-4:

2He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.

3And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

4A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Answer 10

Absolutely