The Red Beret's retreat from Arnheim?

Question

Was it the best fighting retreat of the second world war, fighting against the odds, being surrounded and then getting across the river to rejoin the rest of the British Army, that was some feat....

Answer 1

A lot of disingenuous comment from people who have probably never been under fire in their lives, including a mouthful of bile from someone with Derry in his name. I wonder what the connection is between that and the paras?

The fact is that the Red Berets absolutely distinguished themselves in every aspect of that battle. Undergunned, under supplied, cut off, and dropped onto an entire SS Panzer division. Probably the best soldiers the Germans had.

Op Market Garden is often used by U.S historians as an example of Montgomeries reckless failure, however these are the same historians who say that he was over cautious, when compared to Patton.

It is true that the second army, including the American 101st and 82nd airborne troops they relieved on the way failed to punch through the final 12 miles to Arnhem Bridge. However their record advance through Holland that far and the battles at all the bridges soaked up a huge amount of German manpower and fighting strength, and continued to tie it up in the north whilst Patton attacked through the south.

The failure to meet the final objective was down to three factors only.

1) Weather, which made re-supply and air support impossible
2) Keeping the road open for second army to keep their speed up
3) The presence of an entire SS Panzer division in Arnhem that military intelligence failed to recognise.

Like all military gambles if it has succeeded, which only needed one of those factors to be different, and it had ended the war early he would have been hailed as a genius.

Answer 2

For me the best retreat was Dunkirk.

To those that call Stalingrad a fighting retreat : there was no retreat. The orders of Hitler were to fight has to the last man.

Snowy : nice analyse.

The biggest error the British made was to jump too far from the bridge so that the paratroopers could be stopped by the panzers. If they had jumped on both sides of the bridge they could have fought in the city which is no good figthing ground for tanks. (The small group of soldiers that arrived at the bridge held out long allmost a week, what if they had all grouped immediatly ?)

Answer 3

Several outstanding examples of fighting retreats have been given. I'd like to add the 1st Marine Division's retreat from the Chosin Reservoir (North Korea) during the winter of 1950. They fought and whipped 9 Chinese Divisions, inflicting massive casualties on them.

In typical Marine Corps fashion, when their commander Major General O.P. Smith was asked if the Marines were retreating, Smith explained that their fighting withdrawal through Chinese lines did not constitute a retreat. His explanation was abbreviated into the famous misquote, "Retreat, hell! We're attacking in a different direction!"

Answer 4

I think the better description of the collapse of the Arnhem bridgehead on the north side of the Rhine was "evacuation". There was very little fighting done in the act of retreat, most of it was done under the cover of darkness without the Germans knowing.

In terms of "best fighting retreat" you have to look at the a number of factors. The strategic achievements of the retreat, the odds faced by the retreating forces and the terrain/conditions/distance it was done under.

Looking at all the above, it would seem that the best "big picture" nominations in WW2 would be:

- The BEFs and elements of the French army's retreat and stand in NW France in May 1940. They were helped by some decision from German High Command but nevertheless the quality of the rearguard actions by an outtgunned and inferior force was superb and the large reason why over 300k solderier were evacuated from Dunkirk.

- Rommel and the Afrika Corps retreat from Libya into Tunisia in 1942/43. Outgunned, low on supplies and attacked from two sides, the Germans gave Allied forces a series of bloody noses as they were squeezed up the peninsula.

- The Germans retreat from Normandy in July/August 1944. Escaping encirclement by Allied forces, a large number of German forces were able to retreat back to the German border.

- Japanese retreat 1943-1945 through the Pacific islands. Despite being on the bck foot and doomed to failure, the Japanese forces were frightenly good at fighting retreats.

- German retreat through Italy 1944-45. Allegedly the "soft under-belly" of Europe according to Churchill, the German forces never allowed Allied forces complete mastery of the Italian peninsula. Had to cope with the defection of Italian forces as well as superior Allied material.

- German forces on the Eastern front 1944-45. Inflicted huge casualties on the Red Army as they closed in on the eastern borders of Germany.

Answer 5

Dunkirk was the largest British fighting retreat ever in modern warfare. If the troops had not returned to train the British army there would never been an Arnheim. as well as saving thousands of British troops a large number of French and allied troops also escaped to fight another day. Arnheim showed the bravery of the Brits and Polish Paras Dunkirk showed the Germans British resolve organisation, and refusal to be beaten as well as sacrifice of the rearguard many who survived spent 5 years in POW camps

Answer 6

War makes the best in men. The boys are separated from the men. The brave survive and cowards die.

Answer 7

'Snowy' I think you hit the nail on the head,'Derry O' is an ignorant sicko but unfortunately the world is full of them. I think if we get an answer from some of the servicemen who were there it might be very interesting.

Answer 8

do more research pal quite a number were captured.the greatest fighting retreat of the second world war was STALINGRAD.

Answer 9

They ran like cowards.Its a survival technique used by hired killers all over the world