Can Westerners really learn martial arts?

Question

Yes, I'm getting deep here. Too deep for "answers" perhaps. Many Westerners are stuck in the scientific materialistic world, and will never get the "mystical" part of martial arts, even seeking to get rid of it altogether. Read the first paragraph here: http://members.shaw.ca/tmanifold/remembering_bruce_tegner.htm. Many Westerners are also stuck in a materialistic kind of Judeo-Christian ethic, and seek to avoid the Eastern martial arts, because they can find none of their own black and white good or truth in the things which do not line up with their understandings of the teachings of scripture. (Perhaps because they do not seek it, IMHO). I think there is truth in both East and West, and that the martial arts do indeed and should combine mind with body with spirit. But it is difficult for me as a Westerner raised with the teachings we have here. Or is it truly difficult for all peoples?

All right. Discuss. Please? :)

Okay, Norris is one who figured it out. But I'm speaking in general terms here.

And when I say "really" learn - that's what I mean. Not just learn the moves, but really learn the art. Will Western thinking be able to be as "good" at the art, if they don't take all the spiritual aspects of the "zen-ness" into their practice?

If you try to click the link - when the address comes up, delete the "." at the end of the url and the page comes up.

Clarification - I said "a kind of" Judeo-Christian ethic, meaning that often the spiritual Truth has been compromised to validate the materialism ("physical only", that is) of the West, and now also the East (I've been talking to several Chinese friends who've told me that the spirit in any way is no longer taught in their country - officially).

Clarification - By Western, I mean in general, the Western as opposed to Eastern philosophical (not physical) in thought and viewpoint. Modern Eastern thought could also be included due to the suppression of spiritual matters and traditions.

And of course I mean Eastern Traditional Martial Arts - not Western shoot em up or beat em up warfare and fighting.

Answer 1

I'm not sure I understand your question, so I'm going to extrapalate based on the part that says "Will Western thinking be able to be as 'good' at the art, if they don't take all the spiritual aspects of the 'zen-ness' into their practice?"

There are two ways to take that: either you're asking (1) "Is Zen required to be good at the Martial Arts?" or (2) "Can a person who is not part of the Zen philisophical system learn the mysticism of the Martial arts?"

To address the first part of the question, not all Martial Artists even in Ancient Asia were Buddhist. As an example, there is a system of Kung Fu that was developed by the Muslims, called Tan Tui, that was incorporated into many other systems of Kung Fu because it was so effective. I don't see the Martial Arts as married to any particular philisopical system, although I as a teacher expect my students to uphold a certian moral character.

As to the mysticism, I'm not by nature a skeptic, but I've never seen anyone who can actually do anything supernatural in the Martial Arts. I think that Chi and all that are great ways to describe how different systems in the body interact, but that there are other ways to understand the universe that are equally or even more valid. I think the mystic stuff is not required to be a good Martial Artist, although they aren't useless. Knowing the limits of those systems actually gives us Westerners an edge, if you ask me.

Answer 2

I can't speak for any Asians. I can only speak for myself. I do understand that this at one time was considered taboo. This is what was talked about concerning the legendary Bruce Lee. There were those that did not want him to teach the art to Westerners. At least that is what has been told to us. However, I his success they soon discovered that teaching westerners would make good business sense. They saw a way to profit. Some were sent here to teach others that were authorized or weren't highly ranked left for greener pasture (money). They had great business minds and made enough money. Many may have left out some of the training purposely. While others left before they got the necessary tools and training. I believe that today we in the west have gained more respect for our martial arts training than what we had many years ago. We often look down on where we are today compared to where we are now. But they have a different view. There are more people training. More have made a commitment to a lifetime of training. More have gone and trained in the east and have earned their respect. I was recently at a function is St. Louis. Master Shin who owns and operates a dojo here and teaches judo, tkd and hapkido was being honored. He came here from Korea in the early 60's. He said that when he came here martial arts was not so good. Today is much much better. There are many good artist here today. I may not have quoted him verbatim, but I think you can get the gist. We have earned the respect of many even though we often look down on ourselves as not being as good today because many have watered down the art. But there is a thirst for knowledge by a select group that will uphold the standard. We are too often our own worst critics.

Answer 3

As a matter of fact it IS quite possible. I have not only been a master for 22 years, I am a staunch traditionalist. As for the more mysitcal side of the martial arts without that the Asian fighting arts are just a bunch of kicks and punches that have no real meaning.

I have spoken out many times against the trend in the west to get away from the roots of what the Asian martial arts are and trying to convert then into somehting that would be unrecognizable to the ancient masters. Without a strong sense of Chi (KI QI) the real strength and power of the Asian martial arts disappears and the practitioners lose what made their art effective and useful.

I have always stressed the need for understanding of the more esoteric and mystical philosophies of the martial arts to my students as an important of understanding the history of the styles.

I agree that most Westerners are far too unwilling to investigate these aspects, even thos of Asian descent lean away from that, as though asknowledging that aspect would somehow detract from the credibility of the teaching, when, in fact, the opoiosite is true. It is sad, really, that there are so few of us left to carry on the teaching....in my area, Fresno, Ca...I am only aware of only 1 instructor besides myself that places any emphasis on the more esoteric concepts of the the systems he teaches (Choy Lee Fut Kung Fu and Yang Style Tai Ch'i), and oddly enough is also a westerner. If there are more in the area, they have not been brought to my attention.

Answer 4

i think westerners could definately learn eastern martial arts. i must agree that there are things that seems mystical in eastern martial art(for example the use of zen in MA), but with careful study of culture or the background of the setting the MA was created anyone could learn the eastern MA.

besides this arguement could also work the other way, easterners can't learn western martial arts(boxing, westling, fencing, and etc.), because the scientific approach is hard to approach for a easterner who are used to non materialistic buddist like views. now is that statement true? no, not at all, or at least i hope not... ^^ so u see i think is very possible for a westerner to learn eastern MA as easterner could learn west MA.

Answer 5

Without getting too deep into the Zen and Budo stuff, allow me to say that if it were not for the 'Westerners' interest in learing and subsequently teaching the martial arts (especially Japanese arts after WWII), martial arts would not be as popular and 'open' for learning as it is today and the rest of us, both in the East and West would not have been given the chance to learn some of these 'secret' restricted access practices.

Answer 6

Simply put, if you want to learn martial arts find a good sensei that actually practices a (non watered down version) of Martial arts.This person should be well versed in the Asian arts, and you should be able to learn from his experiences. Read, know your history. Good luck. My boys are reaping the benefits of working with an excellent sensei and his 79 yr old Japanese sensei, whom still practices. They speak better Japanese than the Spanish required in school. Again it is a long hard traveled road but anything worth having, never comes easy.

Answer 7

Of course. To the best of my knowledge, neither skin color nor eye shape has any effect on martial arts skills. I have no idea where you get the idea that the Judeo-Christian ethic is materialistic. 1st, it's not a monolith; 2nd, I guarantee you will find that the vast majority of Priests, Ministers & Rabbis will reject your hypothisis. The spiritual side of MA is philosophical, not theological. I'm Jewish, my master instructor is a devout Christian. There are organizations of Christian martial artists. The spiritual concepts in MA are complex & probably not easy for anyone. It takes time, patience & effort.

Answer 8

Although there are many americans that are good people, the american culture in general is very cocky, arrogant, and like you said, "black and white". It will take a westerner who doesnt follow "society's rules" to learn real, traditional martial arts. I was born and raised in America, but I dont act like one. I dont follow what society tells me to follow if I feel that I will be doing something wrong if I do follow it. I asked a question using Yahoo Answers about why martial arts are considered sports. I wont go into details here about it, but I got many responses that I feel didnt believe we as humans could control and strengthen our spirit (the western attitude towards martial arts). A lot of western thinking is unhealthy I believe, which is why I have turned towards eastern culture and philosophy.

Anyway, to simply answer your question, yes it is possible to learn the "real deal". I know I am using a quote from a movie (the matrix), but I believe it to be true. "Free your mind." Another similar quote from Bruce Lee is, "Empty your mind. Be formless, shapeless, like water." If you do this, you to can achieve things that many people will say isnt possible regardless of where you where raised, what you look like, or where you live.

Answer 9

unfortunately, I didn't see the paragraph you mentioned in the link.

But Martial Arts has influenced my beliefs, and has strengthened my belief in God, and have met many people who also believe in God as well.

so yes Westerners CAN learn Martial Arts as a spiritual side, and use it to strengthen their own resolves as far as religion is concerned.

unfortunately the stigma that Martial Arts is just for fighting has persisted for many years, and most of these people just aren't receptive enough to let themselves think of the disciplines as a way to improve many other aspects of life, including their own spiritual being, because that's what Martial Arts was originally derived for, being able to focus on the spiritual side without hesitation or distraction

so until people can be more receptive to the true concept of Martial Arts, especially in the it's application to every religion, then I'm afraid that the majority of the people in the world including Christans will never understand it.

Answer 10

It depends on the art of course. Sure there might be some eastern philosophy and paradoxes but there doesn't have to be. As for the mystical part, there is no such thing. They are just as deluded as westerners when it comes to that. Chi doesn't exist, nobody can jump over 10 ft walls or stop someone with "energy". Sorry to break it to you.