Follow up to "Do Gods Laws no longer apply?"?

Question

Using the logic of this answer ( "No they do not because Christ Gave us a new law and that null and voids the OT". )
from John B, in regards to my question here: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AvA8Hp5jxfPfEveqJj9j.B3zy6IX?qid=20061019130630AAi1qOt

If the OT is "Null and Void" then why use it at all? Why does the Bible always come with the OT and NT together? This means that nothing in the OT can be used, followed, or otherwise "thrown out there" by Christians, to prove a point. Dosent it?
Jesus saved us from ourselves, right? Once the Messiah came the OT was basically a dead book. So why keep using it? Why not throw it out?

Which should include the 10 commandments. But let me guess, those are the only laws that were kept for the OT right? Amazing how Christians pick and choose what they want to use and what is "Null and Void"

Zero: Thats not the way I hear it.
I hear this same argument from Christians on here all the time. Not just from one person(like John B)
It works for you depending on who you are using it against

Answer 1

Actually I seem to remember Jesus specifically saying that he did not come to change the law at some point in his teachings. I hear the same thing all the time from Christians,that the old law no longer applies to them,that's why they can celebrate the sabbath on the wrong day etc. Because after all their exempt,if they sin they just say forgive me all is forgiven,I'll have to hunt down the thing about not changing the law,after all no Christians going to hunt it down,it would hurt their argument. Ok found it Matthew 5:17 Do not think that I have come to abolish the laws of the prophets,for I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. It also goes on in more detail in verse 18 and 19 to the same effect. Amazing how an agnostic can find it in a five minute internet search and a Christian cant fin it in years of reading the bible,or at least obey it.

Answer 2

Please look up the following verses. All of these were written AFTER the death of Christ showing that the Law today still has use. In fact the use has always been the same from OT to NT. People just haven't read their Bibles to seek it's understanding.

See if you can follow the logic (NKJ Version if you can get it but NIV will do):

Romans 3:19-20
1 John 3:4
Romans 7:7
Galatians 3:24
1 Timothy 1:8-10

Everyone who has not repented and put their trust in Christ for salvation is still under the Law. Christians are no longer under the Law but now they strive to keep it not for salvation but out of thanks and gratitude to God.

God did not come to save us from ourselves but from His wrath. It is because God's wrath is real that His mercy is relevant. Unless you have a real wrath, a real anger, then the Biblical concepts of long suffering, of mercy and of grace are robbed of their meaning.

Answer 3

Two very interesting things happened once God became man.

1) The moment Jesus was born, he became the flesh image of a heavenly thing ... something that is absolutey prohibited by the commandments you cite ... commandments that would, if followed, actually keep us from worshipping Jesus Christ.

2) When Jesus gave us the new covenant in his blood, he fulfiled all that was written about him in the law, the pslams, and the prophets, and then, the old law, complete with the 10 commandments, and all the other ordinances and statutes EXPIRED.

Jesus shortly established his universal (Catholic) church, and he gave his church the sole authority to make laws to regulate Christian conduct.

The church promptly readopted the 10 Commandments in a slightly modified form, so they would properly reflect the new realities of God's new covenant, and Christ's divine humanity.

And since Jesus is no longer a largely unkown, and mysterious spirit God, images of Jesus would not be idols to a false god, but sacred memorials of the one, true God, who redeemed all mankind, and who promised to return and finish the job.

And since the Church was charged by Jesus with teaching the whole world, and the world was still largely illiterate, sacred art and statuary would also serve a very practical purpose in the life of the budding church ... as a graphical catechism of all Christian beliefs.

Much of the artwork we can see in ancient churches and in the Vatican is there not only to honor God, but to teach the faithful about Jesus, and all the people, places, and beliefs, which remain such an important part of the Judeo-Christian faith Tradition.

The Bible itself was of little use to the unschooled and largely illiterate populace, even after it was translated into Latin in the 4th century, which was the vernacular, and the official language of scientist and scholars of the time.

With the rise of Protestant beliefs and practices in the 15th century, along with the false doctrines of faith alone, and scripture alone, new and later faith traditions grew up, promoted by those who were largely ignorant of many (most) of the theologial truths which God's true church had authoratively defined over the centuries.

The new Bible only folks promptly latched on to the old law, just as they found it in scripture, but they could never satisfactorily explain from scripture WHY only part of the old laws were still to be be legitimately observed.

Why didn't Christians still stone adulterers to death? Why don't Christians have to conform to all the old Jewish traditional laws, but they still have to keep the commandments?

Exactly where is that rule detailed in scripture?

Not willing to accept the God-given authority of the Catholic Church, they'll never be able to correctly explain it.

Now you know!

Answer 4

We study the OT because shows us the fulfillment of the prophesies apart from many other things (creation, etc.). The OT is one of the best proofs that Jesus is the Christ. To throw the OT will be equivalent to trowing history books just because history already happened. BTW, we still follow the 10 commandments as Jesus said they both fit in "love your God with all your heart" " and love your neighbor as yourself" All 10 fall into those two.

Answer 5

The Torah (Old Testament) can't be thrown out -- it authenticates Christianity.

Jews do not need Christianity to explain their existence or their origin, but Christians cannot explain their existence without Judaism. You won't hear Jews professing Judeo-Christianity!

"Fulfillment of the law" means they plagiarized the Torah.
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Answer 6

The old testament is certainly not "null and void".
It is filled with practice and prophetic information and instruction. Jesus came to fullfill the law... not to do away with it.

Answer 7

There are a couple of different answers to this & neither is simple. The short answer is that the Old Testament is used for the following reasons:
1) Education regarding the prophecy of Jesus
2) Show the history of God's interaction with humanity
3) Point out the fall of humanity & because of that the necessity of a sin offering to heal the relationship between God and us
4) To show the complete inability of humankind to live up to God's standards of goodness

I'll walk through this to explain further. One assumption that my explanation will make is to that the Bible is true. Whether you agree or disagree is of no consequence – a discussion on God’s Law and its continued validity must assume that it was valid at one time.

I think the reason for the education about the prophecies is self-explanatory.

The fall of humanity came when they were set aside by God to enjoy a relationship with Him. That is what God desires to this day - fellowship with us. It was what we were created for. God doesn't "need" fellowship - if he deeded anything He would no longer be God. But it's what He wants. So why, did He create robots? Because He wants to share Himself - His love, His goodness, etc. That's why He forgave Adam & Eve for the fall. Not without consequences. The animal skins used for their clothing was the result of the first sin offering.

As time went on, God chose individuals He had a special relationship with - Noah, Abram (Abraham), Jacob, Joseph & Moses. After the exile God established a system of laws, dietary restrictions & medical instructions designed to further the lives & health of His chosen people.

Left in the hands of humanity, Mosaic law has been tweaked, poked, prodded & reshaped in various ways over the past 3500 years. The most obvious result was the development of the religious elite - a group of people who believe that by following a strict regimen of daily tasks perfectly that they are doing God's will - God's busywork as it were. But their concern with the physical is backward. The spiritual can overcome and retrain the physical, but not vice-versa.

The coming of Jesus opened eyes to the futility of perfect adherence. While the original intent was simplified by the caretakers (Pharisees), Jesus explained how they had missed the mark and showed what the difference was. It wasn't about actions but attitude.

Examples:

Lust:
If you look at another woman with lust you are guilty of adultery. You don’t have to consummate the act of sexual relations. Fantasy is sufficient to break the intent of the Law.

Murder:
If you think about killing your fellows you are spiritually guilty. Again, attacking one’s enemy is not necessary – just intent.

Dietary restrictions:
What goes into a man doesn't make him unclean. What comes out of his mind & heart does.

Ritualistic cleansing:
When questioned about their habits, Jesus asked the Pharisees why they washed the outside of a cup if the cup was filthy inside.

Health:
Jesus taught us not to be overly cautious and fearful but instead to enjoy the gift of life while we are able. This includes worry – something I heard described as a mild form of atheism. Jesus told us not to worry about life because our Father in heaven will care for us. Instead we are advised look to do His will. And His will is not to mindlessly follow instructions on a physical plain. Do you see the true intent of the Law now? Not physical, but mental & spiritual.

So to say God's law no longer applies is incorrect. Jesus said he came not to abolish the Law but to fulfill it. And in explaining it He showed how He fulfilled it including the ultimate (and final) sin offering. Jesus Himself became the New Covenant. Thus the history testifying of the old covenants (the Old Testament) is a primer to the fulfillment of the New Covenant (the New Testament). And God's Law is fulfilled in the perfection that humanity remains unable to muster. Instead we accept that fate, accept the grace of Christ and are forgiven. Just as with Adam & Eve, God performed the sin offering to forgive us - only it was His son and today we are to be spiritually clothed in the fruits of the Spirit: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Answer 8

The Rules will apply till God Comes back and takes us home. he will soon. But when he dose there wont be a need for anymore rules case we wont be here

Answer 9

Old laws, new laws. . .some crazy old man with a pen. Written laws are but aproximations of the truth.