After studying Calvinism for a while, and then comparing it to other Christian faithsI have a question:
Calvinists believe in predestination: in other words, God has already planned out whether or not you are going to hell, despite what you've done during your life time.
Then most of the other sects in Christianity believe that God has given everyone free will, that it is your job to decide what's going to happen after death.
So...how to word this...how do you all feel on predestination? Some of my friends say it's completely stupid, that God has given them the choice to do what they want, but then they also say that God is all-knowing, and that he can see how things are going to be laid out. If he knows how it's going to happen, isn't that the same as predestination? How can it be free will if God KNOWS what's going to happen to you?
Or...are my Christian friends just a little confused with free will and God's knowledge? Just wondering.
2006-10-15 08:20:04 · 14 answers · asked by Rebecca 1 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Logically, if your future is completely known, then you have no free will or control over your destiny. So, what are the facts? Each of us were created by our parents, and conceived through the combination of their genes.
For example, at conception, your genetic potential could be to be competitive, athletic, and a fast swimmer. You would realize your potential if you became a swimmer. However, you may decide to become a runner, with a passion for swimming, based on choices and circumstances.
Free will and determinism both exist. “Your potential” is deterministic (genetically), at the “instant of your conception”. However, “your life” is non-deterministic, because we have “free will”.
We have free will, though our role will be limited based on our capabilities, our environment, our opportunities, our decisions, and choices others make that impact us.
Potential is a function of spirit, mind, athletics, personality, heart, and other factors.
For example, a slow inaccurate thrower will not become a major league pitcher. That is deterministic. However, they have the free will to try to become a major league pitcher. It may turn out that their true purpose is to write a book on pitching, and their efforts in learning how to pitch led them to their true purpose.
The answer is, there is determinism, there is free will, and there are both. When these issues are discussed, they must be consciously discussed in the right context.
The One Coin Example: A coin is a coin. If you look at one side you see heads. If you look at the other side, you see tails. However, the coin has both heads and tails. A coin is neither heads nor tails; it is both.
Life is life. On one side is potential (determinism), and on the other side is choice (free will). You get lost if you look at only one side. Certain personalities are attracted to determinism, and others to free will. However, life is both.
Philosophy has frequently been confounded by focusing on one aspect of reality, like the heads side of the coin. This is not to say that there is a duality to a coin because it has heads or tails. A coin is a coin. Life is life. There is yin and yang in life, which are opposites and one.
“The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function.” – F. Scott Fitzgerald
A mobius strip is an excellent visual example of this. You can write free will on one side of the paper, and write determinism on the opposite side. You will find they are both written on the same side of the paper, for a mobius strip has only one side.
This is the formula to more fully develop or repair many concepts in philosophy and religion.
Edit: I believe God looks at our potential (deterministic) and what we did with what He gave us to work with (free will). What He does is what religion tries to understand.
2006-10-19 07:57:22 · answer #1 · answered by Cogito Sum 4 · 0⤊ 0⤋
There's a little confusion here with free will and God's knowledge. There is no doubt that God has given us free will - this is something very obviously taught in scripture. It is also true that God has the ability to foresee a thing. But ability does not automatically mean that he does so. This can be seen in the fact that God tested Abraham and when Abraham was about to offer his son, Isaac, God intervened, saying: NOW I do know that you are god-fearing..." Genesis 22:12. Thus, God CAN foresee but he does not always do so.
So even if God looked into the future to see what I would do next week, that does not mean my free will is compromised. I can still do whatever it is next week.
Confusion may also lie in the fact that the scriptures do speak of predestination: but it is referring to a group of people and not the individuals themselves. Thus, there is a group predestined to attain to heavenly life: but the individuals who make up that group are not themselves predestined.
To illustrate: a teacher may tell his class: "if you do not pull up your grades, you will not graduate." Yet, a graduation is going to take place. Do you see? A group of students will graduate from the school, but the individuals themselves must make sure their grades are sufficient to allow them to be a part of that group.
Hannah
Postscript for "B" of Alabama below: There is doubt, you said. Doubt about what? And as for God not operating a school, in terms of our everlasting future, I don't recall saying he did. It was merely to illustrate a scenario wherein predestination and free will could exist. But that he in a sense does operate a school is clear from such scriptures as are found at Deuteronomy 31:12, Deuteronomy 14:23, Deuteronomy 17:18-20; John 17:3; Proverbs 22:6 and Proverbs 2:1-5. We are in a learning capacity. We are - or should be - students of the Bible. Surely, in a sense, we are in school.
2006-10-15 08:28:57 · answer #2 · answered by Hannah J Paul 7 · 0⤊ 0⤋
It's like this: If God knew of you before he laid the foundations of the world, and he knew weather you were going to heaven or hell, you're predestined. There is absolutely no way to change your destination. Romans chapter 9 puts it all to rest. Christians should take great comfort in this. There is nothing they can do to lose their salvation if God predestined them.
post script: there is plenty of doubt Hannah. Hence the Presbyterian and Lutheran churches. And God is not operating a school.
Post script for Christian: I have never seen what you said. What Bible are you reading? It's nice to see a Christian that can call the writings of Paul presumptuous and nonsense.
2006-10-15 08:29:18 · answer #3 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
There's a difference between predestination and knowing what is going to happen. God is Omniscience. meaning He knows everything, and He can see the beginning from the end.
The Bible is clear on Salvation. The Bible says that Christ died so that all might live. It says that whoever calls upon the name of the Lord will be saved.
Calvinist paint a picture of a cruel God, picking only a few people He wants to save, and creating masses to send to Hell, who have no chance for salvation. I'm grateful my God is kinder than that.
2006-10-15 08:24:27 · answer #4 · answered by ted.nardo 4 · 0⤊ 0⤋
Its true god cannot give us free will and be omniscient at the same time. Predestination seems to negate our free will. If some of us are predestined to go to hell then whats the point of being a good person? If god has control over our destiny then we cannot be held accountable for our actions.
2006-10-15 08:33:33 · answer #5 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
Why would GOD condem people he planned to go to Hell.
If anything he should give them a seat in heaven.
My view on Predestination is GOD puts you here to do things for a reason.
That can include mass murders, Hilters, homosexuals
But God, by rights, should take them to Heaven for being pawns of his master plan
Maybe that's the mark of the beast, eh
Who KNOWS who will get into heaven then!
Maybe Bush and the Pope WON'T
Boy, wouldn't that really boggled them!
If God predesintes who goes to heaven and who don't, then what's the purpose in belieiving in Jesus or going to Church!
I mean, it's set in stone
We should just live our lives and accept the end when it comes!
I'm surprised anyone goes to a Calvanist or MEthodist Church
There is NO NEED
You ARE SAVED FOR LIFE
or YOU ARE NOT
It's taht simple!
F --- the Church!
Does that strike you as being logical!
I mean, if I am saved forever than I can say
F --- the church
and get away with it!
God won't take REDEMPTION FROM ME FOR THAT
It was PREDESTINED AT MY BIRTH
I can say or do what I want
I can rape and pillage!
NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO ME
The END results are the same!
That is even more strange than the Catholics with their
FORGIVE ME FATHER FOR I HAVE SMOKED POT, SCREWED MY 13 year old SISTER AND KILLED RIVAL GANG MEMBERS
OK, say 3 Hail Mary's do six stations at the cross and YOU ARE SAVED
2006-10-15 09:23:06 · answer #6 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
Actually it is both, Predestination - God's plan is for all to be saved, but God gave us Free Will or the choice to accept His Salvation. Romans10:13 says, for "Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.", John 3:16 Says, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. The "whoever" means everyone not some that are chosen.
2006-10-15 08:33:29 · answer #7 · answered by Bobby 2 · 0⤊ 0⤋
Romans 8 talks about predestination, so the idea is not "completely stupid."
However, I don't believe it to be same thought of predestination as some tend to think of it. Those he foreknow (for he knows everything) would be sent to heaven are, in essence, "predestined" to heaven. Those whom he know would not choose heaven were "predestined" to wrath.
You have to seperate God's omnisciene and free will, because you could have chosen whatever you wanted to.
2006-10-15 08:26:15 · answer #8 · answered by sarcrl 2 · 0⤊ 0⤋
Calvin got confused with what God refers to as his "elect"
Mankind has free will. To choose life or death thru the cross-salvation.
entirely a human-individual choice.
God on the other habd created all- from the beginning to the end and beyond.
He already knows all the answers- who will accept him and who will reject hi,.
Does not change free will of man-
people call that predestination because God knows now.
Well he knew before anything or anyone was created. yet he did not make the decision for us.
You can put a piece of chocolate cake in fron of your starving child and say don't touch it. yet you know that child will.
did you make the decision for the child- no.
you knew but you did not make it.
same with God who knows all things-who will and who want.
he did not make and has not made your decision as to heaven or hell- that is yours to make-----------
2006-10-15 08:34:39 · answer #9 · answered by cork 7 · 0⤊ 0⤋
You are looking at two extremes.
I believe the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Proverbs16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.
Our free will allows us to choose our own way.
God's predestination for us allows Him to guide our steps in the way we have chosen.
2006-10-15 08:22:39 · answer #10 · answered by Bobby Jim 7 · 0⤊ 0⤋