Are secularist becoming increasingly intolerant of religionists?

Question

In Turkey and France religious and dress is banned from educational establishments, and govenerment offices.
In Turkey a banker even lost his job because his wife wore a headscarf! This mostly effects muslims but also Jews, Sikhs, Hindus and Christians are also discriminated againt.

In America organisations such as American Atheist are making increasinly frivously law suites persecuting religious organisations. They have sues to stop funding for a Christian charity mentoring troubled teenagers.. And Christians are stopped praying schools..


Aren't these secularists misunderstanding the point of secularims is to allow ALL beleifs to be equally respected..and everybody to follow the religion / or none religion of their choose..

And not to stop people from following their religious practices..


Shouldn't ALL secularists wish to follow India's example where ALL religions are allowed and respected.

Answer 1

France is not really promoting secularism, they are masking racism. They banned head covering (read muslim women and sikhs), yamulkas (read jews), and ostentatious crucifixes (has anyone ever seen one of these??). Since all of the above with the exception of the crucifix is perceived by many practitioners to be religious obligations, Frace is leading the west in keeping its minority populations from participating fully in their religions while making no such demand on its majority population. And they pride themselves on diplomancy...

Turkey , on the other hand, is a western-favored fascist regime (like Egypt and Uzbekistan) that simply wants to keep the muslim majority from pushing human rights reform.

In the US the story is different and has been well told by other answerers so I will leave it alone. Simply said, this is a country founded on the freedom of religion, which should include the freedom from religion if one so chooses.

BTW - this is the FIRST question I've read that involves Islam in which the answers are all really interesting. Usually, there are so many insults. Good question!!

Answer 2

They are there to stop one religion from becoming Dominant. Most of those people don't care what your religion is or what you believe. Now, who did they sue? Are they trying to stop the Gov't from funding Christian organizations? If so, then I would have to agree with them, because they Will Not fund other religions. Like you said... Equality for ALL.
Christians are not stopped for praying in schools. What was taken out of school was Lead Prayer. The teachers and principal can Not lead a prayer in a public, promoting one religion over another. Again... Equality for ALL. If they Lead a prayer that is considered Christian, then they have to do it for the Jews, the Muslims, the Pagans, and we would have to devote some kind of time for the Atheists/Agnostics... Equality for ALL.
So your definition of Secular is right, to a degree. Secular can also mean without any religious observation in public places as well... while still leaving you your right to Worship as you please, just not in public venues. And even with that, I do not have a problem with. If everyone's religion were as much of a Personal Relationship as they claim, they would not be out displaying it in public to the degree that some take it. Wearing a headscarf is not included in this... though I do feel that if the face is covered, they should have to remove it to go into public stores, etc... they would make anyone else remove a mask if they walked into a store with it on. Equality for ALL.

Answer 3

The point of secularism has never been to allow all beliefs to be equally respected (though that is a belief of most secularists).

The point of secularism is, as a philosophy, to behave and act without consideration of the divine or an afterlife - to have a set of morals developed for the good of _this_ life, based on observation of right and wrong.

Again, I'm not saying I disagree with freedom of religion, only to poıint out that freedom of religion and secularism are not, and have never been, synonymous.

Yesterday India was hailed by another person as an example of religious freedom, tolerance and respect. You know - Hindu majority, Sikh prime minister, Muslim president, etc.

Wonderful. And it's, what, two years old?

And before that the main party in government was explicitly Hindu nationalistic?

Answer 4

I live in the US and I would be inclined to say yes to both of your questions, if it were not for the fact that the fundamentalist Christians (almost all are hypocrites) here have become so pushy and toxic to themselves, to everyone else and to the school system. It has gone beyond "personal belief". I feel that everyone should have the freedom not to have someone else's religion forced down their throat. No one else is as aggressive as the Christians. My husband was raised in a Muslim culture and does not practice Islam. I respect Islam and Muslims as long as I am not getting attacked by fanatics. Most Muslims are normal decent peaceful people. It's the crazies from every group who believe that killing others unlike themselves is part of their religious practice, who need to be stopped. Let's put them all on an island together in the middle of the ocean, with no hope of escape and force them to learn to live in peace with each other.

Answer 5

I have a suggestion. There is a science fiction book with the title Galileo's Children in which tales of Science Fiction VS. Superstition have been written by known science fiction authors. You could also try either The Left Hand Of Darkness by Ursula K. Le Guin another scien fiction writer or The Dispossed a novel about anarcistic societies. You could also try The Anarchist Anthology. Galileo's Children has the editor Gardner Dozois. If question not sarcasm that is.

Answer 6

I can't speak for the people in Turkey or France, but anyone who thinks there is no prayer in U.S. public schools wasn't in my Algebra 2 class during finals. What was made illegal was compulsory participation by non-Christians in Christian services. I had a teacher who would write fundamentalist Christian prayers on the blackboard every morning and paddle any child who didn't say it aloud. A friend of mine attended a public school where every child was required to say a prayer to Jesus before lunch and if they didn't they weren't allowed to eat. Christian teachers in schools on Native-American reservations used to forbid both Tribal Religious practices and the use of the Tribal Language. I know of one case in England, I lived there for 4 years and was in London at the time, when a group of Islamic motorcycle and bicycle riders claimed the safety helmet laws were a form of religious discrimination since they couldn't be worn over a turban. There was a case in Houston where an Islamic family had arranged a religious marriage according to Islamic law, and the girls escaped from the house and went to the police for protection, not wanting to be given to total strangers twice their age. Both girls were under 16 and native born in the U.S., the proposed husbands were Iranian and had come to collect their property and return home. Why should respect for religion supercede basic human rights? Should we allow genital mutilation of girls at puberty? That is a religous practice. How about the stoning of gays and unwed mothers, should we respect that one? Honor killing of rape victims? You mentioned India, they've banned suttee, the burning of widows alive on their husband's funeral pyre, why shouldn't that religous custom be respected? Would you support the return of the Inquisition, or another Salem Witch Hunt, or to get really extreme, another 9/11? As to the American Atheists and their lawsuits, in a secular society why should public funds be used to support and endorse one religion over all others, as the religous charities you mention were doing? Does the 1st Amendment not specifically forbid the establishment of one faith over others?

Answer 7

The only aim of secularism is to prevent any one religion becoming dominant and in turn leading to a theocracy even ithough US is increasingly looking Christian by proxy at present, it should be resisted.

Secularism can really help to prevent religious conflict, it is probably the only hope, religion must be prepared to move back into the private sphere and stop politicking to impose it's own particular religious laws on the rest of us of different religions and no religion.

It is wrong to be overly tolerant of any intolerant religion who would take every advantage of a too tolerant country to impose it's totalitarianist theocracy.

Answer 8

That's very idealistic of you. However, take a good hard look at this site for example. Do you see all the hate? Do you see all the fighting and intolerance? This is exactly what places like Turkey and France are trying to avoid. They want people to unite and accept each other on more common ground.

Educational establishments are for LEARNING. Work is for WORKING. Wear the religious apparel in your off time.

Answer 9

Personally I think a time has come when secularists need to be more pro-active in discouraging and challenging religionists. It's the 21st century and I don't think we should meekly accept the imposition of religious holidays or religious education for our kids. As Richard Dawkins stated it's time we stopped being so damn tolerant.

Answer 10

Here in America personal choice of religion is exactly what the lawsuits are about. Keep religion out of schools etc. and make it PERSONAL. When people try to force religion upon everyone such as prayer in school then it becomes fanatical.