A question for Jehovah's Witnesses...?

Question

Luke 21:24 says, "..and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations, until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled." (NWT)
If, as the Watchtower teach, the Gentile Times were fulfilled in 1914, what about the condition of Jerusalem at that time ? As you can see from the scripture, Jerusalem being "trampled on" and the end of the Gentile times are inextricably linked. As I understand it, the state of Israel was not re - established until 1948 and the Old City of Jerusalem did not come back under Israeli control until 1967 following the six - day war.

I see. So now not only do we have a 144,000 "spiritual" Jews but also a "spiritual" Jerusalem to be trampled on. So was the temple which was to be destroyed (in AD 70) spiritual or material ? The 144,000 is a literal number but the Jews are spiritual ? If so, then why are they listed by eartly tribal names in groups of 12,000 ? If they are spiritual Israel, why the distinctions ? The dangers of typology and over - spiritualizing a text...

*earthly*

The context of the Lord Jesus' statement in Luke 21:24 makes it crystal clear that He is referring to an earthly situation. He is speaking immediately to Jews in Jerusalem. In verse 20, He speaks of Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, in 21 He speaks of those who are in Judea fleeing to the mountains (is there a spiritual Judea, too ?) in 24 He speaks of - literal, physical Jews - falling by the edge of the sword and being led captive away into all nations... what does history say, people ?
The answers interpreting Jerusalem as a spiritual entity have only served to reinforce my views of the Watchtower as a cultic movement whose members - although they may be sincere - are not true Bereans and willingly accept without question whatever their governing body chooses to feed them. Lord, have mercy !

Answer 1

I was a Jehovah's Witness for many years. Repeatedly we were told that Jehovah's Witnesses had correctly predicted the end of the Gentile Times in 1914. They just had one tiny detail wrong - JW's expected the Gentile Times to end on earth, but instead the Gentile Times (supposedly) ended with an event up in heaven - where there aren't any Gentile nations trampling on anyone. Or any Gentile nations at all, for that matter.

For decades JW's had prophesied that the Gentile Times would end in 1914. It didn't happen, so JW's - instead of admitting they were wrong - eventually said "We were right - but it happened in heaven, so no one knows it except us. How convenient!

As to the correctness of their prophecy, here is how the Watchtower defined the Gentile Times and what their end would mean for the earth. This was written in 1889 in the book The Time is at Hand published by the Watchtower:

"...we present the Bible evidence PROVING that the FULL end of the times of the Gentiles, i.e., the FULL LEASE OF THEIR DOMINION, will be reached in AD 1914, and that date will be the FARTHEST LIMIT OF THE RULE OF IMPERFECT MEN"

...at that date, the Kingdom of God...will obtain full UNIVERSAL control....firmly established in the earth on the RUINS OF PRESENT INSTITUTIONS.

...BEFORE that date God's Kingdom...will crush the Gentile image and FULLY CONSUME the power of these kings.

...True, it is expecting great things to claim, AS WE DO , that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved

Did that happen? Any person with half a brain knows that nothing of the kind happened. World War I began - a great war, but nevertheless just one of many many wars in the history of mankind, and certainly NOT the war of Armageddon.

It would seem that the WT would have no choice but to admit they were wrong, but the presumptuousness and arrogance of the WT leaders is beyond belief. For several years they proceeded to declare "the world has ended - the golden age is here." (Proclaimers book, page 163). For another 50 years, they continued to insist that the great tribulation had begun 1n 1914 and was just "dormant", but ready to re-commence at any time.

The absolute ridiculousness of their teaching that the days after World War I were dormant, can especially be seen when you stop to consider that during that time -from 1939 to 1945- World War II, truly the greatest tribulation the world has seen to this day, was raging. World War II took place - according to them - during the "lull" in the great tribulatin. Even after the war ended, it was decades before they would admit the great tribulation did NOT start in 1914.

Gradually, the WT leaders have redefined their history and prophecies - just a little bit at a time, so as not to unduly disturb the trusting sheeplike members of the fold. With the result being that Witnesses today believe that the WT was fundamentally correct in its predictions - because the Watchtower says so.

EDITED:
the apostles ASKED Jesus "are you restoring the Kingdom at this time". They had a wrong idea, so they ASKED. They didn't go around falsely predicting events that didn't happen. Big difference. If they had said that Jesus was going to set up the kingdom in the year 52 CE, for example, and it didn't happen - then that would be an accurate comparison to the Watchtower. .

Answer 2

In the parallel account at Matthew 24, verse 3 shows that the disciples asked Jesus a three-pronged question. Christ had just told them that the temple would be destroyed and they followed up that surprising statement with the question: (1) when will that happen; (2) what will be the sign of your coming (or presence) and (3) what will be the sign of the end of the age (or the conclusion of the system of things? He answered their three-pronged question in full but his answer necessarily covered many centuries because the events themselves would occur over many centuries. The appointed times of the nations did end in 1914. And yes, Jerusalem is trampled on but one must understand what “Jerusalem” is – what it symbolizes. You are right, the link is inextricable but it is necessary to determine what significance the Bible attaches to “Jerusalem” in order to ascertain whether “the appointed times of the nations” relate to the LITERAL city of Jerusalem or to something additional and greater. The scriptures show that it was something additional – something greater than the geographical city.

Hannah

Answer 3

I was a Witness for 5 years. They, and many today, claim
that most of Revelation has already occured. Some even
claim that things in Revelation happened way back in 70 A.D.,
when Jerusalem was sacked by invaders.
It is the same with the Rapture. People saying it will happen
any day now. When Christ said what we are seeing now, is the
only the "beginning of sorrows."
People are afraid, and don't want to suffer. So they are making things up. But they are contrary to the Book.

Answer 4

In reference to your added comment,

If you compare the 12 sons of Jacob (sons of Israel) to the 12 tribes of Israel (book of Numbers) to the "12 tribes" (spiritual Israel) listed in Revelation you will notice that they are all different.

Why because they represent 3 different "Israels"

Gal 6:15,16 refers to the Christian Congregation (new creation) as the Israel of God.

As to changing "their teachings" over the years,

Even the first century Christians had to readjust their thinking on when the Kingdom was "coming"

Right after Jesus' death, they asked "are you restoring the Kingdom at this time"

Paul pointed out that the great apostasy would have to happen prior to the establishing the Kingdom.

Why are we surprised that worshipers of God, need to adjust their thinking today?

Answer 5

For one thing when Bible speaks of Israel and Jerusalem, in the Christian era, it is not referring to the political state.

It is always referring to the new Christians congregation as spiritual Israel, as Bible says, he is not a Jew who is one on the...... outside, but one on the...... Inside, Circumcision of the heart by spirit. And the Children of Israel are not Abraham's seed, but the children of faith are.

So, the appointed, times of the nations.... refers to the end of gentile rule, without interference by Jesus.

Answer 6

The vast majority of Witnesses hope to enjoy life ON EARTH forever, rather than in heaven.

Jehovah's Witnesses understand heaven to refer to the dwelling place of spirit creatures such as Jesus and the angels. They understand the Scriptures to teach that exactly 144,000 humans will join Christ Jesus as kings and priests to administer God's Kingdom (which will soon replace all earthly governments).
(Daniel 2:44) God of heaven will set up a kingdom... It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite
(Revelation 14:1) Lamb [Jesus] standing upon the Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand
(Revelation 20:6) they will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him

Over whom will they rule? Over the vast majority of mankind, most of whom will have been raised from the dead after Armageddon.
(John 11:23,24) Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.”

Hell is NOT someplace/something mankind needs to fear; there is no suffering in the grave. Sometime after the resurrection, death and "hell" will themselves be destroyed.
(Ecclesiastes 9:5) For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all
(Ecclesiastes 9:10) there is no work nor devising nor knowledge nor wisdom in Sheol ["hell"]
(Revelation 20:14) And death and Hades ["hell"] were hurled into the lake of fire


Almighty Jehovah God selects those few who have the heavenly calling. Each person "feels" his own hope and each person's hope remains unquestioned by his fellow Christians. Still the vast majority (literally more than 99.9%*) of Jehovah's Witnesses expect an EARTHLY hope, the same hope given to Adam and Eve.
(Genesis 1:28) God blessed them and God said to them: “Be fruitful and become many and fill THE EARTH and subdue it [caps added]
(Genesis 2:17) You must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die [so never eating from that tree means never dying]

Learn more:
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/10/1/article_02.htm
http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/2000/10/1/article_01.htm
http://watchtower.org/library/jt/index.htm

Answer 7

Did Jesus indicate a restoration of earthly Jerusalem when he said "Jerusalem would be trampled on by the nations,until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled"?True,Jerusalem had been trampled down by the Babylonians in 607BCE.,and despite the glory of a restoration,no king of David's line had ever again reigned in that city.And in the first century,Jerusalem was being trampled on by the Romans.To this present day there has been no restoration of a theocratic kingdom in earthly Jerusalem.Nor will that ever occur.
Ah,but "the appointed times of the nations"have been fulfilled!Do we not see all around us today the very things that Jesus there foretold-'nation rising against nation' in hot and cold wars,earthquakes pestilences,food shortages,fearful sights,anguish of nations not knowing the way out....'The ending of the "times of the nations" is tied in with these world shaking events that have exploded on earth from the year 1914 onward.It was no mere coincidence that Jehovah's people had been pointing forward to 1914 throughout the 35 years preceeding that date.They understood that the "seven times"of Daniels prophecy,Daniel Chapter 4,would run out in 1914,this marking the end of the Gentile nations' rule over the earth without interruption by God.
So in 1914,the nations were due to cease "trampling on Jerusalem".But which "Jerusalem" is this?It could not be the earthly Jerusalem that was captured by the British general Allenby in 1917 and that remained under mandate to British rule until 1948,when the republic - not the kingdom - of Israel was born.So to which "Jerusalem"did Jesus refer?
Jehovah established a theocratic kingdom at Jerusalem with David as king.It was to David,that Jehovah there made the promise:"Once I have sworn in my holiness,to David I will not tell lies.His seed itself will prove to be even to time indefinite and his throne as the sun in front of me.As the moon it will be firmly established for time indefinite,and as a faithful witness in the skies."(Ps.89:35-37)With the ending of the "appointed times of the [Gentile]nations"in 1914CE,the 'seed of David'with legal right was due to resume ruling in "Jerusalem",or Zion.But not in earthly Jerusalem!
Instead he now rules in the Jerusalem,or Zion,of which Jehovah says,at Psalm2:6"I,even I,have installed my king upon Zion,my holy mountain."This is the city that David refers to at Psalm110:1,2 when he speaks prophetically of the Lord Jesus Christ."The utterance of Jehovah to my Lord is:Sit at my right hand until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.'The rod of strength Jehovah will send out of Zion,saying:'Go subdueing in the midst of your enemies'".Yes,the Messianic King,Jesus Christ,is enthroned now in a heavenly Mount Zion,or Jerusalem,to rule in the midst of his enemies.Already he has hurled the archenemy Satan the Devil,down to the vicinity of the earth.Knowing that his time is short,Satan has brought the nations into "tumult"as the psalm writer so aptly expresses it- Psalm2:1;Rev.12:7-12
Rev.14:1-4 speaks of 144,000 faithful men and women who have been taken from the earth to rule as kings and priests with Christ in the heavens over the earth.
The 12 tribes mentioned in Revelation Chapter 7 must refer to this spiritual Israel for several valid reasons.The listing does not match that of natural Israel at Number Chapter 1.Also Jerusalem's temple and priesthood and all the tribal records of natural Israel were permanently destroyed,lost forever,long before John had his vision in 96CE.In the light of such events,John's vision of those standing on the heavenly Mount Zion with the Lamb(whom natural Israel had rejected)revealed the number of this spiritual Israel of God to be 144,000 "brought from among mankind"

Answer 8

A key to understanding when Kingdom rule begins is found in the words of Jesus. “Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations,” he said, “until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.” (Luke 21:24) Jerusalem was the only city in all the earth that was directly associated with God’s name. (1 Kings 11:36; Matthew 5:35) It was the capital of a God-approved earthly kingdom. That city was to be trampled on by the nations in that the rule by God over his people was to be interrupted by worldly governments. When would this begin?
The last king to sit on Jehovah’s throne in Jerusalem was told: “Remove the turban, and lift off the crown. . . . It will certainly become no one’s until he comes who has the legal right, and I must give it to him.” (Ezekiel 21:25-27) The crown was to be lifted off the head of that king, and God’s rulership over His people was to be interrupted. This happened in 607 B.C.E. when the Babylonians destroyed Jerusalem. During “the appointed times” that were to follow, God would not have a government on the earth to represent his rulership. Only at the end of those times would Jehovah give the power to rule to the one “who has the legal right”—Jesus Christ. How long would that period be?
A prophecy in the Bible book of Daniel states: “Chop the tree down, and ruin it. However, leave its rootstock itself in the earth, but with a banding of iron and of copper . . . until seven times themselves pass over it.” (Daniel 4:23) As we will see, the “seven times” mentioned here are equal in length to “the appointed times of the nations.”
In the Bible, individuals, rulers, and kingdoms are at times represented by trees. (Psalm 1:3; Jeremiah 17:7, 8; Ezekiel, chapter 31) The symbolic tree “was visible to the extremity of the whole earth.” (Daniel 4:11) Thus, the rulership represented by the tree that was to be chopped down and banded extended “to the extremity of the earth,” involving the whole kingdom of mankind. (Daniel 4:17, 20, 22) The tree therefore represents the supreme rulership of God, particularly in its relationship to the earth. This rulership was expressed for a time through the kingdom that Jehovah set up over the nation of Israel. The symbolic tree was cut down, and bands of iron and copper were placed upon the stump in order to prevent its growth. This indicated that God’s representative rulership on earth was to cease its operation, as happened in 607 B.C.E.—but not indefinitely. The tree would remain banded until “seven times” had passed. At the end of that period, Jehovah would give rulership to the legal heir, Jesus Christ. Clearly, the “seven times” and “the appointed times of the nations” refer to the same time period.
The Bible helps us to determine the length of the “seven times.” It equates 1,260 days with “a time [one time] and times [two times, plural] and half a time”—a total of three and a half “times.” (Revelation 12:6, 14) This means that twice that number, or seven times, is 2,520 days.
When we count 2,520 literal days from 607 B.C.E., we come to 600 B.C.E. However, the seven times lasted much longer than that. They were still in progress when Jesus spoke of “the appointed times of the nations.” The seven times, therefore, are prophetic. Hence, we must apply the Scriptural rule: “A day for a year.” (Numbers 14:34; Ezekiel 4:6) In that case, the seven times of earth’s domination by worldly powers without divine interference amount to 2,520 years. Counting 2,520 years from 607 B.C.E. brings us to 1914 C.E. That is the year when “the appointed times of the nations,” or seven times, ended. This means that Jesus Christ began to rule as King of God’s Kingdom in 1914.

Answer 9

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