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One of the primary objections atheists give for being atheists is that organized religion is bad. If one constructed an argument for this reasoning, it may look like this:

1.) If God is good, then religion would be good.
2.) Organized religion is bad, therefore God is not good.
3.) Therefore completly good (omnibenevolent) God does not exist.

My question is not so much concerning the argument, but the connection between religion and God. Religion by definition is man's attempt to reach God. An etymological approach suggest "re" which means "to do again" and "ligio" which means "to link", from which we derive the word ligament. If religion is indeed man's attempt to reach God, then is it fair to reason that bad religion makes God bad? What seems more logical is that bad organized religion would imply that man is bad, so the objection really isn't founded.

2006-10-10 05:37:04 · 17 answers · asked by The1andOnlyMule 2 in Society & Culture Religion & Spirituality

How is my reasoning bad?

2006-10-10 05:42:27 · update #1

@ngela, You said the same thing I did...

2006-10-10 05:44:17 · update #2

Captain Atheism,

2 Things:

1.) You make the statement that all evidence points to their not being a God. How so? I can take the same evidence say that it does point to God.

2.) You premise that religion created God. How? What if God created man and revealed himself to man? And even if religion created God, the the objection still wouldn't hold. A good God couls still exists even if religon is bad.

2006-10-10 05:52:07 · update #3

bluefire, is it possible to have multiple concepts of God, and they all be right? If I say that my God is the only God that is real, how can that be compatible with other beliefs in God. Either I am right or wrong. If am wrong, my God doesn't exist. If I am right, then your God doesn't exist.

2006-10-10 05:55:40 · update #4

The Peter, I essence, I am asking is rejecting religoin enough to warrant atheism.

2006-10-10 06:01:15 · update #5

asamil...I am not doubting faith. This is a question talking about the relationship of God and religion. If anything, it bolster faith by rejecting the notion that bad religion leads to atheism.

2006-10-10 06:59:38 · update #6

Captain, I've read that site. If the kind of arguments that are presented on that site are are the best there are for atheism, it is no wonder that so few people are really atheists.

2006-10-10 07:04:11 · update #7

Captain,

You have no idea how much I have studied religion. It seems as if you are implying that if one does study religion as you have, he will arrive at atheism. In fact, quite the oposite was true for me. I studied religion, and came to conclusion that the Christian faith was more reasonable than anything else, historically, rationally, and metaphysically. Now I am persuing religious studies at a post-graduate level.

I am willing to dialogue on the topic at hand, but it requires two way communication. Rather than citing credentials, why not succinctly answer the questions I presented, or at least warrant your claims. Stating something then claiming to be an expert on the subject doesn't make it true. This would be the committing the same fallacy atheists claim theologians commit.

2006-10-10 08:10:51 · update #8

The Peter,

I'd agree: organized religion without God doesn't make sense, but that not what I am asking. Does bad organized religion warrant atheism?

2006-10-10 08:17:00 · update #9

Captain,

I can link sites too. That still doesn't prove anything, and it doesn't address the questio at hand. If I turned in a paper in College or Grad School with a title and a thesis, list 30 resources, and tell the professor to go read the resources to back up the claim, then I am going to flunk. On the otherhand, if I bring out a point/research the author makes, analyze it, and apply it to my thesis, then naturally I am going make a much better grade.

I can also answers, "read the Bible". You may object, saying, "Well, it says such and such", and I say, "Well you must not have understood itt." If I offer no explanation or help then what's the point of prescibing it?

Any good thinker knows how one arrives at a conclusion is just as, if not more important than the conclusion itself. Big deal if the site sows doubt.

2006-10-10 08:57:38 · update #10

If you want to deal with prayer specifically, ok. I can do that. It is clear that the site has a gross misunderstanding of prayer, it's purpose, and how God answers prayer.

1.) God is not a geni. The site assumes that God answers prayers according to the prayer's request, which is simply not true. The Bible instructs believers to pray according to God's will. (Matt 5:5-34) The purpose of prayer is not to change God's mind, but to make believers more mindul of God. If one earnestly seeks God, then he or she will ask for the things God wants. He already knows what you want before you ask anyways.

2.) Often times people pray out of selfish motives. (i.e. give me $10,000), and they don't recieve. (James 4:2-3)

3.) Another study shows that statistically prayer does work.
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html

2006-10-10 12:03:02 · update #11

The reason I cited Matt 6 is because in the that passage, Jesus is talking about prayer, fasting, and seeking God. He instructs his listeners to prioritize the kingdom of God, and these things (wordly needs) shall be added, and in the "Lord's Prayer", he instructs them to pray "Your kingdom Come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven..." Is not telling his listeners to rub thier prayer bottle and the prayer genii will give them thier hearts desire, but to seek His desires. The model of prayer you are advocating is not how the Bible instructs one to pray.

If I take the Bible, or any book and treat is as you are, I can make it say whatever I want. Here is a good example:

Matt:27:5 So Judas threw the money into the temple and left. Then he went away and hanged himself.

Luke 10:37c Jesus said, "Go and do likewise."

So are we suppose to hang ourselves? Obviously not.

2006-10-11 02:58:37 · update #12

Concerning the Article

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/prayer.html#01

The studies the site talks about are published in medical journals. These are the same journals that get peer review by medical professional so they are perhaps more scholarly than something published on CNN. But if you want consumer grade reports, MSNBC has run a a articles on the therapeutic affects of prayer and spirituality.

http://health.msn.com/healthnews/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100144965

http://health.msn.com/centers/mentalhealth/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100133472

http://health.msn.com/centers/highbloodpressure/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100136045

2006-10-11 03:45:50 · update #13

No prob...where is your blog?

2006-10-11 04:10:10 · update #14

17 answers

Religion created god. It is our only reason for believing one exists. It is also the only thing that tells us we will be punished for NOT believing one exists.

In which case, if the religion is false and man-made, it follows that god is, also.

But you know what? I may be wrong. Maybe god does exist. But if so, he's never told ME that he's sending me to hell, if I don't believe in him. A Roman emperor told me that. And I don't believe a word he says.

Therefore, if a god does exist, and I don't believe in him, I am not afraid of the consequences.

Now one might say, doesn't it feel good to believe in god? Isn't that worth something? And for me, the answer is no. I don't need a god. I value the truth. And all evidence points to the fact that there is no god.

I don't believe in Santa Claus, just because it would make me feel good. I'm not going to do that for god, either.


Edit - I'm not writing a thesis on why there is no god. This website covers it in layman's terms quite adequately. But I'm not going to write down the 15 years worth of research that I've done on religion. The origins of Abrahamic faith are well documented, and it didn't come from ... "god".

http://www.godisimaginary.com

Edit - as to their being the "best" arguments, they're not. I said, they are in layman's terms, for people that don't want to research for themselves. These are very simple proofs, for people who only want simple answers. (IE - Christians) I've studied religion for most of my life. It's important to me. You apparently have not studied as much as I have. And I don't mean that as an insult. It's simply the truth. If you knew what I know about religion, you wouldn't be a believer.

Edit - The website I sent you adequately proves that "god" either does not exist, does not care about us, or is powerless to help us. Why would anyone choose to believe that this god exists? And if one does believe it exists, why would anyone worship an impotent or uncaring god?

Edit - I'm not turning in a paper at college. This format does not allow me to write everything that one needs to, to answer your question. Take your pick of any of the proofs listed on the link I provided. I will debate any one of them with you. As it stands, they are undeniable evidence that your god does not exist. If you want an exact example, use the one that proves prayer does not have any effect whatsoever. http://www.godisimaginary.com/i2.htm This was proven by an army chaplain not long ago, who was attempting to prove the opposite. http://www.cbc.ca/health/story/2006/03/30/prayer-heart-surgery-20060330.html If your god does not answer prayers, what good is he?

Edit - "Matthew 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. "




Where in the bible does it say describe prayer by your definition? Nowhere. The bible states "Ask, and you shall receive". Your definition, wherein one is not supposed to ask for favors from god, is modern day apologetics that Christians have used to backpeddle away from the truth. Christians know as well as I do that prayer doesn't work, so this modern, moderate approach that you mentioned has been invented. Also, looking online, I see no reputable source verifying the prayer "study" listed on that Christian website. There is no legitimate news story that I have found, other than on biased sites like the one you listed. You can find my story on just about all news outlets, such as CNN, etc. Why do you think that is? Is there a conspiracy that the media doesn't want anyone to know about that study? Or is it that the entire thing is illegitimate, and is completely fabricated by a website that obviously exists only to promote Christianity?


Edit - I'm not posting anymore on this question, as no one in their right mind is going to read an answer this long. I emailed and offered to debate this on my blog, or somewhere else more functional. Just let me know.

2006-10-10 05:43:01 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 0 1

I don't follow religion, because religion is a game that man plays to make himself equal to God. Man puts rules on religion to kepp way those not wanted and only allow those that are wanted. The rules are played with to make those on the inside feel better about themselves and to keep those on the outside away.

True faith in Jesus is not the same. Doesn't matter if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God or not, look at his teachings and match that up to religion as a whole. The difference will blow you away. Jesus taught Compassion (concerned passion, concerned love) not judgement and damnation. His was the Selflessness not selflishness. Match that up to religion.

Truly a hard act to follow but a great model to live by.

Again religion is a game and I don'tplay games. I follow in faith, a belief in things not seen.

Given the choice which is reaaly better to follow?

2006-10-10 05:49:27 · answer #2 · answered by Dead Man Walking 4 · 0 0

The answer to your question is yes, atheists reject religion altogether.

What you are defining, however, is a person who does not believe in organized religion. I have several friends who are like that, and they are mostly Christians. Atheists do not reject organized religion because organized religion is bad, the reject it because it makes no sense to organize a religion when there is no God.

--
Edit: No, of course not. If you have a problem with the church you belong to, you can seek out another, or start a new one. To not believe in God is a much more fundamental rejection of religion.

2006-10-10 05:45:24 · answer #3 · answered by ThePeter 4 · 1 0

Sounds to me like you are questioning your Faith. God is real and good. People are born into sin, and at the age of accountability are responsible for their sins. So called athieism is rebelling against God and his powers. Religion is simply how you choose to worship God. There are many religions out there, How you choose to worship God is your choice. your reasoning can be argued in many ways, I wont go there. We as humans do not understand or can't comprehend the powers that God posses. Read the Bible with understanding and choose for yourself. And remember that the secret of life is Faith.

2006-10-10 06:22:14 · answer #4 · answered by ? 4 · 0 0

Your theorys don't add up to fact they are your misguided opinions. This is mine:
Religion is man-made. Man is inperfect. Therefore religion is not perfect because it is made by man.

BTW: God is Perfect and if you weed out all the man made crap and get down to you and God you will see the difference.

Yes we both agree religion is not perfect but you see the fault with God where I see the fault with MAN.

2006-10-10 05:42:34 · answer #5 · answered by Stiletto ♥ 6 · 0 0

Their e book is powerful, subsequently everybody else is erroneous. this is the full quantity of it from their point of view. it truly is a uniquely American phenomenon. In no different developed and knowledgeable united states do you have Christian fundamentalists holding the Bible is a textbook for background and technology. Christians contained in something of the international in basic terms settle for that the goat-herders who made up the memories that grew to become the Bible - divinely inspired or no longer - in basic terms did no longer have the coaching to understand modern-day biology, genetics, and astrophysics and so their depiction isn't scientifically precise. in case you in easy terms seem for great similarities, there are some tremendously stunning coincidences contained in the Bible's advent tale and modern-day medical concept. you in easy terms would desire to settle for a definite quantity of metaphor and slippage contained in the timetable through loss of comprehension of the goat-herders telling the story. are you able to think of God attempting to describe the great Bang to those adult men, for whom bronze develop into severe technologies? "No, no, it truly is E=mc2, which leads us to... oh, by no potential techniques. It develop right into a great BANG and then there develop into gentle." "Then there develop into gentle, have been given it!" :D

2016-10-02 04:00:06 · answer #6 · answered by ? 4 · 0 0

I think there is a God. I have not found a religion that I can embrace. Any religion that claims to be the only way to God, is disgusting.

2006-10-10 05:42:41 · answer #7 · answered by Gorgeoustxwoman2013 7 · 0 1

Thankfully, there is more than one concept of God. I know my concept of God is probably not the same as yours or our Christain neighbor. That's what makes us INDIVIDUALS. If you want to believe in God, that's fine, just don't try to control anyone elses life.

2006-10-10 05:50:49 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 0 0

Atheist do not believe in Any God ..be he bad, good, or indifferent. Agnostics believe in a supreme being but just do not really have a name for it yet.

2006-10-10 05:41:12 · answer #9 · answered by Anonymous · 1 0

No.

You could be agnostic

My personal view, is if there is a God, that none of the religions that are today accurately portray him and what he stands for.

2006-10-10 05:38:55 · answer #10 · answered by Southpaw 7 · 1 0

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