If Judaism is neither a race or a religion, is it a racial blood cult that believes in matrilineal descent?

Question

Jews have to be born of a Jewish woman.

dapperdan, There is no way that a person not born of a Jewish mother is considered 100% Jewish when they convert. Why pretend to be ignorant of this? There is no way that a convert to Judaism would ever be the Prime Minister of Israel.

dapperdan, how am I spreading a libel about Judaism? I understand that Ruth was a convert. Why did she have to convert? Don't tell me God required it. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. all married foreign women before Ruth. Were they less Jewish for it? Matrilineal descent is institutionalized racism. Jesus was the Messiah, a descendant of Ruth through Mary and David. Your use of the word libel is silly.

dapperdan, you don't understand the definition of libel. I said that Jews have to be born of a Jewish mother. That is accurate. I'm aware people can convert to Judaism, but stop pretending that Sammy Davis Jr. was 100% Jewish. Jews do not try to win converts. Are you denying this? Why else would Orthodox Jews forbid their men to marry Gentiles?

dapperdan, I don't appreciate your "libel" that my question is not sincere. Especially since you admitted that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Esau married foreign wives. I understand that Jews and Muslims accept converts. There is a reason that you don't see either actively proselytizing. Obviously, neither really want converts.

dapperdan, I never "called Judaism racist", I asked whether it was. Your own words don't really convince me otherwise. You say that once a person is born of a Jewish woman they are always Jewish. That implies that if they stop practicing the faith, their blood ties them to all Jews. That is what I mean by racial blood cult. Catholicism is also a blood cult by the way. The blood being Christ's. Here is what you said: "Technically, all Jews-by-birth are descended from converts, Abraham and Sarah. It's in the soul, not in the blood. It's a special quality of the soul of a Jewish woman that imparts itself to a child. Think about this: Those who are born into the Jewish people can never leave. They can tell themselves that they have, and others can say the same. But according to the Torah, they will always be Jews (a sincere convert, similarly, once they become Jewish, cannot cease to be Jewish). A Jew does not have the power to become a non-Jew." Sorry, but this is pretty creepy.

I also don't appreciate your "libel" that I said Judaism is institutionalized racism. I asked whether matrilineal descent is a racial blood cult. Why? Because it makes no sense for a religion to persecute men who want to marry Gentile women. Also, it makes no sense for a religion to not try to convert the entire planet. If you cannot stop being Jewish once you are Jewish, how can the child of a Jewish man not be considered Jewish if the mother is Christian? Sorry, but matrilineal descent is clearly a racial blood cult. You said it yourself. The child of a Jewish woman can never stop being Jewish.

dapperdan, I don't know what to make of this: "If a Chinese man and a Chinese woman have a child, do you call them racist for insisting that their child is also Chinese?" This seems to imply that Judaism is a race. I never raised a scenario where two Jewish people had a child and insisted the child be non-Jewish. ???

dapperdan, I wish I added "Judaism also accepts converts". Would you have been as upset? I can only understand your responses if you were thinking of that whacko anti-Semitic "blood libel" about Jews sacrificing Christian children. That is insane..."Borat" believes that no doubt. I am sincere in my question as to whether matrilineal descent creates a racial blood cult. Again, Christianity is a blood cult whether people admit or not...why do you think Mel Gibson made his "Passion" movie into a horror show? There is also the cult of the Virgin Mary which resembles the Egyptian goddess Isis and the Greek and Roman goddesses as well. I hope you are not still offended by my use of term 'blood cult'. Are you aware that Catholics drink the 'blood of Christ' every Sunday at Mass? We refer to Christ's blood as the new covenant.

Your words: "Also, the descendants of converts are Jewish from birth. Where's the blood connection there?"

That is the blood connection you silly fool!

dapperdan says: "So this means that you think either Judaism shouldn't be hereditery, or that it should be passed through both mother and father."

AMEN!!! You have seen the light. You have admitted that Judaism is hereditary, therefore it acknowledges a "blood connection" between mother and child.

Dapperdan says: "It seems to me that the issue of heredity in religion and transubstantiation in religious rites aren't related at all except that both involve the word blood"

Wrong. The blood of Christ was Jewish blood that was shed for all irregardless of whether their mother was Jewish. My point was not so much about transubstantiation in the Eucharist as much as His Jewish blood dripping from a scourging and crucifixition.

Dapperdan says: "It's not a cult. Matrilineal descent is not a cult, and Judaism is not a cult. Unless you're using "cult" as a synonym for religion"

Thank you Dapperdan, Judaism and its matrilineal descent is a blood cult. A religion about the blood (geneology) of your descendants, especially your mother.

Dapperdan says "So there you have it - irrefutable proof that Judaism and it's practices cannot constitute a racial blood cult, as they have nothing to do with race or blood nor do they constitute a cult. A normal person, after having his *** handed to him like this, would probably stop using such a flagrantly erroneous and abusive term, but something tells me that it won't stop YOU. Because you know better."

LOL. You admit everything I suspected, you contradict yourself, you are always offensive and absurdly arrogant, you distort what I say, and then you agree with me in the end. WOW. I never said Judaism was racist. I asked whether matrilineal descent is a racial blood (geneology) cult (religion). I'm sorry but I do believe the dogma or whatever you call it of matrilineal descent smells like racism. Now, feel free to be arrogant and offensive if you like. Maybe I should of said "racial geneology religion" instead of "racial blood cult". Would that have angered you? Oy vey?

Sorry dapperdan, I couldn't resist. This is the best. I chose this because it shows you as offensive and absurdly arrogant and irrational.

Your words: " Assuming the lesser of two evils, that you think Judaism is seriously flawed, and Jewishness can come from mother or father, then YOU'RE the one tying Jewishness to blood. You're the one advocating the racial blood cult - not us! So put that in your pipe (which I'm guessing at this point might be a crack pipe) and smoke it!"

You admit that Jewishness comes from a Jewish a mother, that there is a blood connection (through flesh and blood from your mother, through geneology), which no doubt is equally present from the father, yet somehow I am responsible for tying Jewishness to blood or geneology? Unless you think I am God, you are mistaken. I didn't give you matrilineal descent. Meshuggah?

Dapperdan says "PS: I see you've edited your answer a few more times, inserting stuff into the middle."

Sorry DD, you can't edit "additional comments" you can only add new ones. You are paranoid.

Dapperdan says "Okay, so it sounds like you're saying all Jews should be converts. But you have already said a dozen times that Jews don't accept converts (which must be your personal preference, since it bears no resemblance to the actual tenets of Judaism). So by your logic, Jews should not exist. QED, *****."

??? When did I say that Jews don't accept converts? I said from the start that Abraham, Issac, Esau, and Jacob had foreign wives you silly man! Why do you assume I have some libelous agenda? I took it for granted that people know that you can convert to Judaism and that very very very few people do and that Jews don't actively proselytize. Seriously, you have poor reading comprehension. This is not fun for me either DD. This is what happens when YOU associate the insane "blood libel" with the use of the word cult (religion). If anyone has been libeled here it is me. You are now saying that I said Jews don't accept converts.

Dapperdan says, "You keep saying that one's blood comes from both mother and father. And yet basing Jewish lineage on the mother and not the father is racism. Yet I say it can't possibly be so, because if we WERE concerned with blood, then it WOULD come from both mother and father. And as I've stated previously, the children of a female Jew-by-choice are born Jewish! By your logic, King David wasn't Jewish (and if you believe that Mary Jesus' mother was descended from King David, it follows that Jesus wasn't Jewish - which is a claim that even I wouldn't make). Onkelos wasn't Jewish. Rabbi Akiva (one of the most famous Jewish sages in history), by your reckoning can't be Jewish on account of his blood (his parents were converts). And yet I'M the one espousing racism."

Again, I pointed out that Jews have been marrying outside their "race" very early in this long annoying post which I'm wishing never happened because you get more and more obnoxious, arrogant, offensive, and paranoid.

Dapperdan: "Frankly, I think you're simply projecting your own hypocrisy on to me because you don't like what I'm saying. I've made my point, and I stand by it."

Hypocrisy? When did I contradict myself? Give a single example.

Dapperdan: "If you really cared about this issue, you would be open to the possibility that you are mistaken (and you are mistaken), or would at least pursue the issue with an authority on the subject rather than asking random people their opinion on Yahoo! - which appears more an attempt to stir up anti-Semitic sentiment than to get an answer to a burning question."

This is libel. You are accusing me of having an agenda to spread hate and bigotry. Pretty lame Dapperdan. The truth is that you are angry about the word "blood cult". I told you Christianity is a "blood cult". How old are you seriously, 13? You honestly think there are people on this planet that think that Jews don't accept converts? Get real. Everybody knows that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Esau, and David had foreign wives. Everyone knows Ruth was a Moab. Everyone knows the Virgin Mary was a descendant of Ruth. You are such a time-waster. I'm getting sick of this.

Answer 1

"Blood cult"? Funny definition! It is a much-debated question though - although some devout Jews might well consider it a religion, it's still the case that many who describe themselves as atheists nevertheless feel some kind of cultural tie to Judaism, and may describe themselves as "non-religious Jews".

Of course, there is really no such thing as a race - the notion of races is now quite discredited, relying as it does on the fetishisation of various physical characteristics which really don't mean anything much.

But it does seem that the Jewish 'culture' - if so it can be termed, and I confess I'm not entirely decided - does have some transmission through maternal lines. But of course, the practice of Jewish culture in say Canada may be entirely different from its practice in Turkey. So perhaps it's more a network of cultures, with some social ties to the Jewish religion.

Anyway - surely it's up to people who identify as Jewish to work this one out. There's enough defining and separating going on in the world - let's not engage in it as a fun past-time.

Answer 2

first off what dose the prime minister of Israel have anything to do with the religion of Judaism.

that's like saying you must be Christian to be the president of the United States.

as for Abraham, Issac, and Jacob that was before the Torah was given to Israel. If you notice Jacob had two sisters as his wives something completely forbidden in the Bible. Also if you ever read Ezra it points out that men even in biblical times could not marry converts.

David did not marry anyone that was not Jewish or a convert it would be forbidden to do so.

Answer 3

Judaism is the old testament of the bible. They don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah. They are descendants of past notable people in the front of the bible. So it is somewhat by race but mostly by religion. The nation of Israel all believed the same way.
They believed that the wicked would die and return to the dust.
The righteous will live forever upon the earth.

Answer 4

It's confusing. I see it as a religion, but some who claim to be don't follow it. They just pretend I guess. It also depends on the believer. Some say you have to be born, others say you convert. We Christians have our variations as well and have those who say they are Christians really are not.

Answer 5

Yes, and humans have to be born of a human mother. So what?
What was your question again?

Me, I'm a gringo; so I don't know much about Jewish things, but I find your question a little suspicious.

Answer 6

It is a collection of mythological stories from which sprang the collection of stories that became the christian myth....

Answer 7

People can convert to judaism.

Answer 8

lol

Answer 9

What, in your estimation, is the distinction between a "race" and a "racial blood cult"? I mean, other than the fact that one sounds much more diabolical than the other?

Jews clearly aren't a race in the modern sense of the word ("race" used to be synonymous with culture, and in those days, both Jews and non-Jews would refer to a "Jewish race"). There are Jews, both Jews-by-birth and Jews-by-choice of all different races. I've met Black Jews, White Jews, Persian Jews, Spanish Jews, Syrian Jews, German Jews, Panamanian Jews...

In any event, there are in fact TWO ways to be Jewish. One way is simply to be born of a Jewish mother. But your statement that "Jews have to be born of a Jewish woman" - and I see that you seem to be making a statement here, not asking a question -- in fact, the very way you ask your question makes it appear that you're not asking for the sake of learning, but only so that you can spread libel about Jews and provide others with an opportunity to do the same. In answering, I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt, and hoping that those who really are curious about the matter may read this and walk away knowing something new. But I digress. What I was saying that your statement is inherently inaccurate because one does not HAVE to be born of a Jewish mother. One can convert to Judaism, and at that point they become absolutely 100% Jewish. No blood transfusion necessary. ;)

You can't convert to a race. And I'm willing to bet you can't convert to a "racial blood cult," whatever that is. But you can convert to Judaism. Clearly, Judaism is more than simply a religion. But it is not inaccessible to those who wish to join. The belief that it is has caused our people much pain and suffering througout history. People use the so-called exclusivism of Judaism to rationalize everything from ransacking murderous riots. In light of the abovementioned facts, I hope you will reconsider your stance on the issue, and perhaps not load your questions before you ask them in the future.

As for the later comment on your question:

"dapperdan, There is no way that a person not born of a Jewish mother is considered 100% Jewish when they convert. Why pretend to be ignorant of this?"

Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize you were the expert on Judaism. So you are lecturing us then, and not askng a question? A convert is considered 100% Jewish, and any orthodox rabbi will tell you the same thing. Go ahead. Ask one. You can talk to one live on http://www.askmoses.com . If there are Jews-by-birth who treat Jews-by-choice differently than how they would any other born Jew, then the fault lies with that individual Jew, not his or her religion, which he or she is explicitly disobeying by doing so!

I'm not "pretending," nor am I "ignorant". Just because you refuse to accept the facts does not mean that I am lying. (In the same vein, you could ask: The sky is not blue - it's obviously green. Why pretend to be ignorant of this?)

"There is no way that a convert to Judaism would ever be the Prime Minister of Israel."

Interesting that you choose "Prime Minister of Israel," a political position, and not a job of religious import.

I bet that a Hindu convert to Christianity isn't likely to be elected president of the United States. Should we conclude that that that former Hindu is therefore not a Christian?

When someone converts to Judaism (in accordance with Torah Law), that person is Jewish. Period. If a woman converts, and then has children, those children are Jewish too.

You know Ruth? From the Bible? She was a Jewish convert. She was also the Grandmother of King David. The Messiah will be descended from from that same family line. Do you understand what this means? The Messiah will be the direct descendant of a convert.

So apparently, the "blood" of a convert doesn't disqualify one from being King of the nation of Israel. But because you assume that Israelis would not elect a convert to the office of prime minister (they're not going to elect an orthodox Jew either - does that mean that orthodox Jews in your definition are not real Jews?), this means conversion isn't real. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why don't you research the matter for yourself?

Oh, that's right, you won't. Because you're not actually asking a question. You're just here to talk **** about Jews, a group about which you clearly don't know jack. I'm sorry, I think you're in the wrong place. The klan meeting is three doors down and to the left.

Oy...just when I think we're finished:
"dapperdan, how am I spreading a libel about Judaism? I understand that Ruth was a convert. Why did she have to convert? Don't tell me God required it. Abraham, Issac, Jacob, David, etc. all married foreign women before Ruth. Were they less Jewish for it? Matrilineal descent is institutionalized racism. Jesus was the Messiah, a descendant of Ruth through Mary and David. Your use of the word libel is silly."

Okay... is my use of the word libel silly, or do you simply not know what it means? Let's have a look, shall we?

li‧bel  /ˈlaɪbəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lahy-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun, verb, -beled, -bel‧ing or (especially British) -belled, -bel‧ling.
–noun
1.Law.
a.defamation by written or printed words, pictures, or in any form other than by spoken words or gestures.
b.the act or crime of publishing it.
c.a formal written declaration or statement, as one containing the allegations of a plaintiff or the grounds of a charge.
2.anything that is defamatory or that maliciously or damagingly misrepresents.

Calling a Judaism a "blood cult" is certainly defamatory. Calling it "institutionalized racism" is even more so. Given that it's not true, what else could you call it besides malicious misrepresentation? Accidental misrepresentation, perhaps? But you're using a forum where, theoretically, people are supposed to come with questions and leave with answers, and instead of asking a sincere question, you use the forum to post a racist diatribe. That sounds pretty malicious to me.

First of all, though Abraham is referred to as the "first Jew," this is a posthumous label. If you want to get really technical, he was the first Hebrew, and he was the founder of a religion later to be called Judaism, but he preceded Judah by generations. So while he is considered a Jew today, Jew wasn't even a word back in his day (neither was "Christian" or "Muslim"). This guy went around preaching monotheism, and gathered quite a few converts. In any event, the wives of the people you mention (specifically Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) are considered the matriarchs of the Jewish people. They were no less Jewish than their husbands.

And just for the record, what made Abraham so special? It wasn't in his blood - it was in his soul, which he chose to elevate. Abraham, the first Jew in the sense that he was the first member of the Jewish faith, is a convert! Technically, all Jews-by-birth are descended from converts, Abraham and Sarah. It's in the soul, not in the blood. It's a special quality of the soul of a Jewish woman that imparts itself to a child. Think about this: Those who are born into the Jewish people can never leave. They can tell themselves that they have, and others can say the same. But according to the Torah, they will always be Jews (a sincere convert, similarly, once they become Jewish, cannot cease to be Jewish). A Jew does not have the power to become a non-Jew. But a non-Jew has the power, if he or she wishes, to become a Jew.

In any event, you have yet to provide any proof that matrilineal descent (one of two ways to be Jewish) is racist. Why don't you attack Muslims for their reliance on patrilineal descent? Perhaps because they accept converts? Well so do we!

The Jewish system cannot be properly called racist for the simple facts that there are Jews of virtually all races, and conversion is available to anyone. The fact that YOU don't accept converts to Judaism doesn't mean jack ****, because the TORAH does.

Do you hear me? Your opinion on Judaism, when it is diametrically opposed to the core of the Jewish faith, is absolutely worthless. And if you think it's "silly" to refer to the spread of malicious falsehoods about Judaism in a written forum as libel - check the dictionary.

As it so happens, one of my best friends IS a Jew-by-choice, and one of the most respected members of his community. Up until recently, he was learning in an Israeli yeshiva with the best of them, and only came back to the states to start law school. And nobody would challenge this guy's Jewishness - not his rabbi, not his peers, not the Chief Rabbi of Israel! And yet you would deny his Jewishness because he is a convert. Fortunately, as explained previously, your opinion in the matter is worthless, so I don't have to let it bother me.

There be some area in which you are an expert, but buddy, it ain't Judaism. Why not come here with real questions? Then you might leave knowing something new, and being a better person for it, rather than butting heads with people like me who have no patience for racist nonsense.

If you don't believe me, again, go ask any orthodox Jewish rabbi. They will tell you the same exact thing. There are converts, and they have played a very important role in Jewish history. If defining certain people as Jewish by default, while allowing anyone who wants to become a part of the Jewish nation is racist, well then, you've simply redefined racism. If a Chinese man and a Chinese woman have a child, do you call them racist for insisting that their child is also Chinese?

And for the record, G-d doesn't demand that anybody convert to Judaism. You want to talk about things that show who unexclusivist Judaism is - there's no Jewish teaching that you have to be Jewish to be "saved," or to go to heaven or whatever. Maimonides, one of the most revered philosophers in Jewish history, once said that "the righteous of all nations have a share in the World to Come" (the Jews being one of 71 nations as defined in ancient times).

When you die, there's no sign on heaven's gate that says "Jews only." And I hope I'm not bursting your bubble, but there's no sign that says "No Jews" either. Deal with it. Deal with the fact that this anti-Semitic libel you're spreading here (the very statement "Jews have to be born of a Jewish woman" is both misleading, and has been a source of great animosity towards Jews throughout history) is in fact libel. If you don't like being called on it, then just cut that **** out. I'm more than happy to discuss the issue, like two civilized people, all you have to do is play the part.

First, you have to stop with these bone-headed assumptions. If you're here to learn and exchange ideas, then more power to you. If you're here to "teach" this hate-based garbage, I'll do whatever I can to let people know that you're a fraud and a charlatan.

Man, you just don't stop... Okay, I'm addressing your latest batch of comments, and I'm done.

"dapperdan, you don't understand the definition of libel. I said that Jews have to be born of a Jewish mother. That is accurate."

Ahem, NO IT'S NOT. Being born to a Jewish mother is a sufficient condition for being Jewish - not a necessary one. Learn the difference. What makes you more of an expert on Judaism than the Jewish sages? How is it that you know better than Jewish scripture on what defines a Jew?

"I'm aware people can convert to Judaism, but stop pretending that Sammy Davis Jr. was 100% Jewish."

I don't know if his conversion was according to Torah law. The Reform movement lets people in by signing a piece of paper - and I'd agree with you there, those people are not Jewish. But anybody who converts in compliance with the Torah IS 100% Jewish. If the conversion of Sammy Davis Jr. was presided over by a proper Beis Din (Rabbinic Court), and it included an acceptance of the Torah and its commandments, as well as a proper bris milah and immersion in a mikvah (all of these are required by any beis din in the world), he would be 100% Jewish. If he did not do these things, then I agree that he was not Jewish.

Hey, have you ever heard of Onkelos (see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onkelos )? No, of course you haven't. Onkelos was a Jew, and he also happens to be the author of one of the most important commentaries ever written on the Torah. Devout Jews study his commentary alongside the Torah portion every week. Onkelos was also a convert. But show me someone who says he wasn't 100% Jewish, and I'll show you someone who doesn't have the slightest clue what he's talking about.

"Jews do not try to win converts. Are you denying this?"

No, I do not deny this. In fact, if you read what I said earlier, you'll find I mention this explicitly. I also explain that there's no teaching in Judaism that requires the world to become Jewish. I don't see why you have a problem with this. Everyone has the option to be Jewish if they want. But if they don't, it's not counted against them. Compare this to the elitism of other religions that condemn all those outside the religion to the eternal agony of Hell. But of course, that seems totally rational to you, right?

"Why else would Orthodox Jews forbid their men to marry Gentiles?"

Women are also forbidden. So what? People end up doing whatever the hell they want anyway. Discriminating when choosing a spouse isn't only not a bad thing - it's essential, and EVERYONE does it. Some people use superficial criteria like appearance. Some people look for someone with a certain type of personality. And some people look for a match based on spiritual or philosophical rapport. Well, in truth, it's usually a combination of the three - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. And for those of us who wish to raise Jewish families, one of the ways to ensure that this will happen is to marry Jewish. What's the problem with that? If a Christian wants to raise a Christian family, he or she should marry another Christian! There's nothing bigoted in that - it's just common sense. Add to that that a Jew can marry a convert, and only an idiot could misconstrue this as a racial issue. Like I always say: I'd be willing to marry a woman of any race if we were right for each other, as long as she's Jewish. I'm Jewish, and I want my kids to be Jewish, so I choose to marry a Jewish woman. Only a total asshole would have a problem with that. You might be complaining that the problem is that it's legislated that Jews must marry Jews. I don't know if you've noticed, but a lot of Jews (at least 90%) don't follow Jewish law at all. It's a choice. I personally believe that I lot of people are making the wrong choice - but it's theirs to make.


"dapperdan, I don't appreciate your "libel" that my question is not sincere."

How is it sincere? Your question ends with a statement, and you refuse to change your stance on that statement, not because of the facts (that stand in direct opposition to it), but because of your contempt for Jews and Judaism that anyone here can infer from your writing. Your choice of wording "blood cult" further betrays the insincerity of your question. Here's a hint: A sincere question is one where you want to learn the answer. A sincere question does not contain the answer! You answer your own question before listening to any other opinions. Are you really unable to see why people would find that disingenuous?

"Especially since you admitted that Abraham, Issac, Jacob, and Esau married foreign wives. I understand that Jews and Muslims accept converts. There is a reason that you don't see either actively proselytizing. Obviously, neither really want converts."

Umm..I've seen Muslims actively proselytizing. They definitely want converts. I think in the ideal Islamic world, everyone would convert to Islam. Jews don't actively proselytize anymore, but it's not because we don't want converts. Rather, its only because we want serious, determined converts. People who will uphold the Torah and serve as living sanctifications of G-d's name. It's a pretty high standard. We have enough problem with Jews-by-birth not having their act together. That's why Jewish outreach is typically geared towards Jews. We need to get our own **** together before seeking out new Jews. And again, Judaism teaches that all righteous people have a place in the next world, Jew and Gentile alike. So why seek converts? If you want to convert, great, welcome to the tribe. And if not - that's cool too. It's basically the most unbigoted stance a religion could take. What is your problem with it? Would you rather hear that Jews are seeking world conquest, a la the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Well, I'm sorry, but they don't teach that book in Hebrew school. :P

The role of the Jew is to be a light unto the nations, and to lead by example. When Jews are doing what they're supposed to, and constantly working on their relationship with G-d, this manifests itself in everything that they do. Religious Jewish families are some of the most functional I've ever seen. Religious Jews are scrupulously honest in all their business dealings (it is a severe violation of Torah Law to even OWN inaccurate weights or measures, even if you don't intend to use them). Religious Jews are at peace with themselves, their G-d, and the world around them. All of this comes from the Torah that G-d gave us at Sinai. The idea is that the nations should be able to just look at the Jews and the way they live and say "surely, this is a wise and understanding people". And those who wish to become Jews, again, are free to do so. (In fact, one commentary has it that the main purpose of the Jewish exile is to bring in converts from among the nations - that's another strike against you, Mouthbreather. Nice choice of nickname, by the way.)


"dapperdan, I never "called Judaism racist","

Oh, no, of course not. I believe your exact words were "institutionalized racism"?

"I asked whether it was. Your own words don't really convince me otherwise."

Which words of mine reaffirm your assumption that Judaism's matrilineal descent is a form of racism?

Was it when I said that matrilineal descent isn't the only way to be Jewish? A fact (not an opinion - a fact) that you continue to deny, despite this puts you at odds with any Jewish rabbi, not to mention Jewish scriptures. But you know better than all those, right?

Was it when I said that a proselyte who converts according to Torah Law is absolutely, irrefutably Jewish?

Maybe it's when I said that one doesn't need to be Jewish to get on G-d's good side. Yeah - not damning non-Jews to hell, that's Jewish racism for you. Unlike say, Christian tradition where all non-believers are banished to a lake of fire for eternity. That's much less bigoted. You know, because everybody suffers equally. Unless you've accepted Jesus as your personal lord and savior (tm), in which case you get to watch the people burn, from heaven, on some big screen TV, while eating popcorn, or something.


"You say that once a person is born of a Jewish woman they are always Jewish. That implies that if they stop practicing the faith, their blood ties them to all Jews."

Well, actually it's their soul. Similarly, if one converted to Torah-observant Judaism and then strayed (not sure this has ever happened, but it's possible), that person remains a Jew. Where, then, are the blood ties? (Other than in your imagination, I mean.)

"That is what I mean by racial blood cult."

See above. It's not about race, it's not about blood, and it's not a cult - which you are no doubt using in the derrogatory sense (not that your question suggests any bias, heaven forbid!)

"Catholicism is also a blood cult by the way. The blood being Christ's."

Okay, good for them, I guess. What do you want from me?

"Here is what you said: "Technically, all Jews-by-birth are descended from converts, Abraham and Sarah. It's in the soul, not in the blood. It's a special quality of the soul of a Jewish woman that imparts itself to a child. Think about this: Those who are born into the Jewish people can never leave. They can tell themselves that they have, and others can say the same. But according to the Torah, they will always be Jews (a sincere convert, similarly, once they become Jewish, cannot cease to be Jewish). A Jew does not have the power to become a non-Jew.""

I sure did!

"Sorry, but this is pretty creepy."

Okay. Find it as creepy as you want. As long as you have no rational basis for objection (here's a hint: "this is creepy" doesn't qualify), I could care less. I can't refute your personal feelings, and I wouldn't need to if I could.

Some people find gefilte fish creepy. I personally think it's delicious. Apparently you find tolerance and anti-elitism to be creepy. Whatever floats your boat, I guess.

Are we done now? Oh, wait, there's more...

"I also don't appreciate your "libel" that I said Judaism is institutionalized racism. I asked whether matrilineal descent is a racial blood cult."

Actually, you asked wither JUDAISM was a matrilineal blood cult (see the question at the top of the page), and later affirmed (in other words, a statement, not a question), and I quote:

"Matrilineal descent is institutionalized racism."

If you can't even get your own comments straight, what are the chances of us having any kind of productive discussion?

"Why? Because it makes no sense for a religion to persecute men who want to marry Gentile women."

How does a religion itself persecute? I know a lot of Jewish men married to gentile woman. Hell, my brother is married to a non-Jewish woman. I don't persecute my brother. As far as I know, no one is persecuting my brother for his marriage to a non-Jewish woman. Or are you saying that declaring the children of a Jewish man and non-Jewish woman to not be Jewish is persecution? It's not really our choice to decide who's Jewish. That's kind of up to G-d. We can't repeal the laws of nature.

If you were to drop a watermelon on the ground, and it were to break into a bunch of pieces, leaving nothing but a soggy mess, would you curse the law of gravity for persecuting the melon? Ha, I bet you would.

"Also, it makes no sense for a religion to not try to convert the entire planet."

Yeah - letting people lead their own lives is definitely the wrong thing to do. You know what we should do? We should go out there with pamphlets and gather as many souls as we can. And if that doesn't work, we'll break out the thumbscrews and the old iron maiden. Then they'll definitely see the light! And if they don't, well, **** 'em, they're just heathens, right?

For the record, every religious Jew is working for the day where all people will acknowledge the common fatherhood of G-d and the common brotherhood of man. This is what we believe will happen when the Moshiach comes. And there's actually a growing movement of Torah-observant Gentiles, believe it or not. These are people who don't wish to undergo conversion to Judaism, but rather wish to keep the laws of the Torah that apply to all humanity. They call themselves B'nei Noach or Noachides, because they are keeping the covenant that G-d made with Noah. So they're not Jews, but they are their co-religionists in that they worship the same G-d (as do Christians and Muslims, but I would say that the Noachides are just more on the ball about it) and follow the same Scriptures as the Jews. Ideally, we'd like all people (those who do not wish to become Jews - and thereis nothing wrong with that) to follow the practices of the Noachide (the Seven Noachide Commandments are actually already worked into a lot of religions). See more on that (not that I actually believe you'll read it, but maybe someone here is curious) here: http://www.aish.com/literacy/judaism123/The_7_Noachide_Laws.asp

"If you cannot stop being Jewish once you are Jewish, how can the child of a Jewish man not be considered Jewish if the mother is Christian?"

The above statement makes absolutely no sense. Just because someone is Jewish does not make their child Jewish. The child of an intermarriage, where the husband is Jewish, didn't "stop being Jewish," they were never Jewish in the first place. And the father never ceased to be Jewish. So where's the problem?

"Sorry, but matrilineal descent is clearly a racial blood cult. You said it yourself. The child of a Jewish woman can never stop being Jewish."

I said that the child of a Jewish woman can never stop being Jewish, but I didn't say that matrilineal descent is a racial blood cult. You'll notice that these are two different statements, as they contain both different words and different meanings.

Since you're obviously slow on the uptake, I'll spoon feed this to you:

You call matrilineal descent, which is part and parcel of Judaism a "racial blood cult".

1) It's not racial: There are Jews of many different races (including born Jews - so even if conversion wasn't accepted, as you incorrectly maintain, it wouldn't be racial.

2) It's not about blood: Again, converts are considered 100% Jewish without a blood transfusion. You say that they aren't, but Jewish law, and a long history of converts and their descendants playing a crucial role within Jewry, beg to differ. Also, the descendants of converts are Jewish from birth. Where's the blood connection there?

3) It's not a cult. Matrilineal descent is not a cult, and Judaism is not a cult. Unless you're using "cult" as a synonym for religion. cult of course has the most negative connotation of any synonym you could have chosen for "religion". This choice was clearly deliberate, and suggests that you're probably a jerk.

So there you have it - irrefutable proof that Judaism and it's practices cannot constitute a racial blood cult, as they have nothing to do with race or blood nor do they constitute a cult. A normal person, after having his *** handed to him like this, would probably stop using such a flagrantly erroneous and abusive term, but something tells me that it won't stop YOU. Because you know better. You know more about Judaism than me, than any observant Jew, than any rabbi, you know better than the Bible and the Talmud. If the facts conflict with your bigoted worldview, than the facts must be wrong. Keep at it, Mouthbreather - eventually the universe will reshape itself to conform to your will.

"dapperdan, I don't know what to make of this: "If a Chinese man and a Chinese woman have a child, do you call them racist for insisting that their child is also Chinese?" This seems to imply that Judaism is a race. I never raised a scenario where two Jewish people had a child and insisted the child be non-Jewish. ???"

Again, Judaism can't be a race in the modern sense of term because one finds Jews of many races. (Jews could be, and aretermed a "race" in archaic texts, in which race used to be equated with culture.) The reason I use the above analogy is simply because it's an obvious fact - the consequence of two Chinese people procreating is a Chinese child. Judaism is a spiritual system, and in it, the child of a Jewish woman is Jewish. The child of two Jewish parents is Jewish from the mother, and may be given a specific tribal affiliation from the father. Most Jews today are Judeans, but if one's father is a Kohein (Priest) or a Leivi (Levite), so are they. This is something that gets passed from father to son. The daughter of a kohein or leivi (my maternal grandfather is a kohein) is called a "bas kohein" or "bas leivi" (the daughter of kohein or levi), but this has virtually no practical applications in the post-Temple era, and her children do not inherit her tribe-specific status. But I digress.

As you have stated so emphatically, and so many times, you consider matrilineal descent to be racist. So this means that you think either Judaism shouldn't be hereditery, or that it should be passed through both mother and father.

If it's the former, well, too damned bad. It's not your place to change biblical law. It's not mine either. And please don't think I'm discriminating against you because you're not Jewish - I'm discriminating against you because you're an idiot.

And if it's the latter, then wouldn't that make you the racist, and not me? I mean, let's look at the facts.

I'm Jewish. And I know that a Jew derives his or her Jewishness either from his or her mother, or from a proper conversion. I also know that Judaism is not transmitted by blood. You, on the other hand, insist that conversion is impossible, and that matrilineal descent is wrong. Upon further analysis, we deduce that you must mean that being Jewish can come from either parent. Because if you were saying that it should come from neither mother nor father, then Jews could not exist, as per your anti-conversion stance (that's your stance, not Judaism's). Maybe that's it. Maybe you'd just prefer that there were no Jews. Assuming the lesser of two evils, that you think Judaism is seriously flawed, and Jewishness can come from mother or father, then YOU'RE the one tying Jewishness to blood. You're the one advocating the racial blood cult - not us! So put that in your pipe (which I'm guessing at this point might be a crack pipe) and smoke it!

"dapperdan, I wish I added "Judaism also accepts converts". Would you have been as upset?"

NO. That's the whole ******* point! You have already insisted that Judaism does not accept converts, more than once! Either you're 100% Jewish, or 0%. It's all or nothing. If you want to talk about half-Jews and other mongrels, I believe the Nazis made an easy-to-use chart. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_Laws) And yet I'm the one following a racial blood cult - not you. Funny how that works.

" I can only understand your responses if you were thinking of that whacko anti-Semitic "blood libel" about Jews sacrificing Christian children. That is insane..."

Glad we finally agree on something.

""Borat" believes that no doubt."

Borat is ******* hilarious. Did you know that the actor who plays him is Jewish? That's what makes those bits of anti-Semitism satire so hysterical.

"I am sincere in my question as to whether matrilineal descent creates a racial blood cult. Again, Christianity is a blood cult whether people admit or not..."

It seems to me that the issue of heredity in religion and transubstantiation in religious rites aren't related at all except that both involve the word blood.

And like I explained, what, three or four times now? - it can't create a racial blood cult if it's part of a religion (note: not a cult) that is based neither on race nor blood. Somehow, if you were to ask Setzuso Kotsuji (Z"L) if he believed Judaism entailed a racial blood cult, he'd probably say no. (http://www.aish.com/holocaust/people/the_Japanese_Convert.asp)

"why do you think Mel Gibson made his "Passion" movie into a horror show?"

Again, this has nothing to do with Judaism, and really couldn't care less.

"There is also the cult of the Virgin Mary which resembles the Egyptian goddess Isis and the Greek and Roman goddesses as well."

See above.

"I hope you are not still offended by my use of term 'blood cult'."

Seeing as how, as mentioned previously, Jewish matrilineal descent and Christian transubstantiation are two completely unrelated concepts, linked only by your use of the word blood, I really don't have an answer for this.

"Are you aware that Catholics drink the 'blood of Christ' every Sunday at Mass? We refer to Christ's blood as the new covenant."

Yes, I am. I mean, I would argue that it's not blood in that cup (I recall an episode of Family Guy where Peter receives communion and quips: "Is that really the blood of Christ? Man, that guy must have been wasted 24 hours a day!") - but I'm not a Catholic, and do not accept the assertion of Jesus as Christ (in Hebrew, "Moshiach") for the simple fact that not a single messianic task was fulfilled by him. But that's an entirely different discussion. Suffice it to say that it's not my belief, but I respect the right of other to keep it, and I don't call them bigots for propagating their beliefs in whatever way they see fit, so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of others.

Okay, I'm done. No amount of points is worth this, and anybody who is drawn to the question you pose can see the answer written above, repeatedly. So....bye.

Damnit - how many times do we have to go over this?

"You admit that Jewishness comes from a Jewish a mother, that there is a blood connection (through flesh and blood from your mother, through geneology), which no doubt is equally present from the father, yet somehow I am responsible for tying Jewishness to blood or geneology? Unless you think I am God, you are mistaken. I didn't give you matrilineal descent. Meshuggah?"

Yes, I do say that Jewishness can and usually does come from the mother - I never denied this. The problem is that you repeatedly assert that conversion is not a valid means of being Jewish, and this is absolutely incorrect. I have given enough counter-examples to convince any sane human being. Later, you asked if I would not have been offended if you had added that Judaism accepts converts. Indeed that would change things, except that you have explicitly and repeatedly denied this (with such inane arguments as "a Jewish convert will never be elected Prime Minister of Israel" - this being unproven and completely irrelevant besides). If you did, however, modify your argument to read that converts are also Jewish, then your whole question of Judaism as racial cult answers itself with a resounding NO.

Again, I say Jewishness is imparted from a Jewish woman to her child, but it has nothing to do with blood. You said "I didn't give you matrilineal descent". Okay, so it sounds like you're saying all Jews should be converts. But you have already said a dozen times that Jews don't accept converts (which must be your personal preference, since it bears no resemblance to the actual tenets of Judaism). So by your logic, Jews should not exist. QED, *****.

Explaining this to you is like banging my head into a brick wall repeatedly. You would be the brick wall - unshakable, and remarkably dense.

You keep saying that one's blood comes from both mother and father. And yet basing Jewish lineage on the mother and not the father is racism. Yet I say it can't possibly be so, because if we WERE concerned with blood, then it WOULD come from both mother and father. And as I've stated previously, the children of a female Jew-by-choice are born Jewish! By your logic, King David wasn't Jewish (and if you believe that Mary Jesus' mother was descended from King David, it follows that Jesus wasn't Jewish - which is a claim that even I wouldn't make). Onkelos wasn't Jewish. Rabbi Akiva (one of the most famous Jewish sages in history), by your reckoning can't be Jewish on account of his blood (his parents were converts). And yet I'M the one espousing racism. I say that Judaism CAN be passed from mother to child, but it has nothing to do with race (again, because it's not the only source of Jewishness, and because it works for converts who have none of the "Jewish blood" that you're so obsessed with). And that's why it doesn't go from father to child.

You can call me absurd, arrogant, irrational - whatever you want. I understand that this is the natural reaction of someone who holds his own small-minded beliefs so strongly only to have someone come along and shatter them irrefutably. Call me whatever you want. I've given up any hope of convincing you. As long as the other people here (and judging by the other answers, I think most of them already get it) see that your LIBEL is completely baseless, and you have brought nothing to support it except your own distaste for Judaism (note: repeating the same one-note argument over and over again after it has been disproven a dozen different ways does not qualify as proof except perhaps to someone as delusional as you).

Judaism believes in matrilineal descent. But Judaism does not believe in patrilineal descent, therefore it cannot, by the definition of race, be racial. Judaism allows for conversion, and the descendants of converts, and their descendants, for all eternity, are Jewish, therefore it can't be about blood (and again, can't be racial). Lastly, there are over 14 million Jews in the world, and Judaism is the very foundation upon which western civilization rests - it is the parent religion of both Christianity and Islam. Therefore, only a complete and total schmuck would call it a cult.

Your question is completely disingenuous, and by the looks of the argument that followed, fueled by hate-based assumptions. If it was sincere, as you claim, you would bring your question to a qualified authority (I believe I gave you a link to do so, but you could also run a search on any search engine and find articles on the subject from authentic Jewish subjects). And Jewish clergyman, of any denomination, would tell you that conversion is valid. Now, since the Conservative and Reform movements are not based on Torah Law, and the acceptance of the Torah (and each of its mitzvot) is the whole point of conversion, traditional Jews do not accept conversions through either sect as valid. And many Reform Jews accept patrilineal descent as a sufficient condition for Jewishness. Since this has no basis on Jewish law, traditional Jews disregard this. So that's how it works in the major American Jewish movements, which have counterparts around the world. But I don't care what the movements say - I care about what the Torah says. It always has been, and always will be, the heart and soul of Judaism (the emergence of Jewish movements is a historical aberration - it has happened before, but all those ideologies that abandon Torah have gradually disappeared into the oblivion of assimilation).

Alright, I've given you Judaism's position on the issue. By means of logical deduction, I have proven repeatedly that Judaism cannot possibly be a "racial blood cult," as not one of those three words is an accurate description of it. You may have found some of my remarks abrasive, and they were intended as such. Ironic that the one thing I have no tolerance for is bigotry, which you just seem to exude constantly, at least when discussing Judaism. That's your problem, not mine. If you really cared about this issue, you would be open to the possibility that you are mistaken (and you are mistaken), or would at least pursue the issue with an authority on the subject rather than asking random people their opinion on Yahoo! - which appears more an attempt to stir up anti-Semitic sentiment than to get an answer to a burning question. You have apparently done neither, so you get no sympathy from me.

Gratvol, Shemus Would, and rimrocka all see right through your question - so it's not just my objections that you have to consider. I don't know if any of those folks are Jewish themselves - but it doesn't matter, because they all have a better grasp of the subject than you do. If you don't listen to my answer, listen to theirs.

Alright, I'd realy like to be done now. Please, leave me out of this from here on out.

PS: I see you've edited your answer a few more times, inserting stuff into the middle. Frankly, I'm tired of this discussion, which has done nothing but go in circles. You make some misinformed assumptions about Jewish practice. I present facts about Judaism which normally should counteract that misinformation. You then repeat that misinformation, and I repeat the facts. Enough already! You keep calling my arguments arrogant and offensive. I understand that as a Christian, my choice to explain Judaism from a Jewish perspective and a Christian one might offend you greatly. Well frankly, that's just too damned bad. I've already told you what Judaism says on the matter. I've explained a dozen or so times why Judaism can't possibly be a "racial blood cult," providing numerous examples to support my assertion (you have provided no support for your argument other than the fact that Jewishness is passed from mother to child, which is moot in light of the fact that Jewishness isn't ONLY attained that way). But you refuse to budge. You accuse me of contradicting myself despite the fact that you're the one who argues that converts to Judaism aren't Jewish, while at the same time adding "Judaism accepts converts" (how am I distorting your words when you say both of these things explicitly? - And as to whether I'm distorting your arguments in general, what say we let the other readers be the judges of that?) Frankly, I think you're simply projecting your own hypocrisy on to me because you don't like what I'm saying. I've made my point, and I stand by it.

Your deliberate closedmindedness precludes any new information from getting in. That's your problem, not mine. And I've already given a very generous share of my time trying to address the concerns of a lost cause such as yourself. I have given you the benefit of much of what I have learned in my years as an observant Jew (which is nothing compared to even the the least educated orthodox rabbi - but still enough to provide you with details on such far-reaching ideas as the Jewish concept of identity, Jewish theology, and the role of non-Jews alongside Jews in ushering in the messianic age). I would seriously suggest you re-read what I have said and consider it with an open mind. Or consult a Jewish scholar on the subject. Again, you can talk to one online in real time on websites like askmoses.com.

You have my sincere pity, but you shall have no more of my time.

THE END. (Seriously.)

*sigh*

Seriously, I wouldn't mind new questions if only they were, in fact, new questions. Okay, a few final thoughts...

"Hypocrisy? When did I contradict myself? Give a single example."

I think if you read through my answer, you'll find several. I'll reiterate the most obvious one for the benefit of the exceptionally slow (that's you):

You have affirmed now both that Judaism accepts converts, and that a convert is not Jewish. (As for your question as to how the Jewish matriarchs could be Jewish... well, I shouldn't have to remind you that Abraham himself was a "convert". Your question is essentially meaningless.) A convert to Judaism is simply a Jew. There are other words used to specify them as a certain type of Jew ("ger," that is, "proselyte"), but this doesn't render them non-Jewish. They are Abraham and Sarah's spiritual (rather than physical) descendants, which is why converts take on names ending with "ben Avraham" (son of Abraham) or "bas Sarah" (daughter of Sarah). The only distinction between a Jew-by-birth and a Jew-by-choice other than the Jew-by-choice's status prior to conversion, is one that you have created. You keep insisting that Judaism accepts converts and yet converts aren't Jewish. This is a contradiction, and a really stupid one. Several of my closest friends are either converts, or the children of converts, and **** you for trying to tell them they aren't Jewish. They don't get that kind of **** from other Jews - only bigots like you.

"Just because someone is Jewish does not make their child Jewish? Are you denying that a Jewish woman's child is Jewish?"

No. I am denying that a Jewish MAN'S child is Jewish if the mother is not. The mother is they key, which is, again, why Judaism can't be a "racial blood cult," as "race" and "blood" are transmitted through both mother and father, and Judaism is not. I think this is the 100th time I've explained this - it's a wonder ballons don't fall from the ceiling to the sound of sirens.

"If a Jewish woman marries a Catholic man and has a child, is that child Jewish?"

Yes. Actually, you're describing my father. He's a Jew who was raised Catholic, and grew to harbor a strong resentment towards religion in general, largely thanks to intolerant jackasses like you.

Could you please shut the **** up now? Nothing new has been said for at least the last five pages. I just have to keep rehashing the same information because you don't get it. How about this... if you feel an objection coming on, just re-read what I wrote, and consider it my reply. That way I don't have to re-type it, which is basically what I've done for each of your inane postscripts.