Is Red China our friend or our enemy? Not so simple question, is it?

Question

I think this is the greatest question of our times, and palyers on the highest levels of political, military, and corporate power are STILL
mulling over the answer.
Here is my answer. We are treating Red China as a de facto
friend. How could it be otherwise, as we outsource a great bulk
of our manufacturing sector, with all the technology transfer that
goes with it, and have been building up a trading deficit with the country that is exponentially growing, and is the largest of any country in the world. On the other end, we entrust the Red
Chinese to expeditiously send back dollars earned in the proper
pockets of US government debt, such as t-bills and other Fed
notes, that keep the circular process churning.
So, we must be considering China, by consensus, a friend,
for, if it is, or will be, our enemy, I would imagine the leverage
Red China would have on our economic system would be quite crushing, to say the least.

SO, is Red China a friend, enemy, or a little of both?

BTW, a little history is in order.
During the heighth of the Korean War, we
were FAR closer to an all out atomic war with Red China than is believed.
Admiral Bradford, the Joint Chief of Staff at the time, in 1953, before a congressional committee, said that Red China had to be destroyed even if it required a fifty-year war, and argued for the use of 500 planes
to drop tactical A-bombs on Vietminh troops before the fall of Dienbienphu.
And recall, General Macarthur, advised an
all out war with Red China, after which he was relieved of his command
", MacArthur repeatedly requested authorization to strike Manchuria and major Chinese cities with thirty to fifty nuclear weapons, an action which Truman and the State Department feared would draw China's ally, the Soviet Union, into the conflict. Angered by Truman's desire to maintain a "limited war," MacArthur began issuing important statements to the press, warning them of a crushing defeat.
Eye-opening stuff, to say the least!,

BTW, a little history is in order.
During the heighth of the Korean War, we
were FAR closer to an all out atomic war with Red China than is believed.
Admiral Bradford, the Joint Chief of Staff at the time, in 1953, before a congressional committee, said that Red China had to be destroyed even if it required a fifty-year war, and argued for the use of 500 planes
to drop tactical A-bombs on Vietminh troops before the fall of Dienbienphu.
And recall, General Macarthur, advised an
all out war with Red China, after which he was relieved of his command
", MacArthur repeatedly requested authorization to strike Manchuria and major Chinese cities with thirty to fifty nuclear weapons, an action which Truman and the State Department feared would draw China's ally, the Soviet Union, into the conflict. Angered by Truman's desire to maintain a "limited war," MacArthur began issuing important statements to the press, warning them of a crushing defeat.
Eye-opening stuff, to say the least!,

BTW, this isn't neo-mccarthy-ism....hardly......and it would be nice to rationalize all concerns with potential
future "problems" with the chinese as a neo-mccarthy reactionary thrust. Would
one still consider it an antiquated, quaint
echo of the past if China decided not to "play nice" in the future, either militarily
or economically? My point is, until Nixon's
"rapproachment" with Ho Chi Min, our relationship with China was at best mildly
antagonistic, as we were fighting the Vietnam war at the time, of which China was the major source of materiel and advice, not to mention military advisers.
In what later would be known as the "China Card", the Nixon administration deliberately improved relations with China in order to gain a strategic advantage over the Soviet Union, but also gave Moscow a chance to improve relations so as not to be squeezed by a US-China détente.
So, the incubus of our China relations was
KIssinger's realpolitks. Now, 30+ years
later, where do we stand?

here is a very well-thought out, nuanced
link to what I'm saying.
Food for thought, to say the least......
very heated commentary, but lots of facts
spread throughout, especially the outsoucing of our manufacturing complex in toto the the Chinese...
http://www.thebackpacker.com/trailtalk/thread/8048,-1.php

short, but sweet, and brings home my point, that we are supposedly attempting to
bring and spread democracy to the middle east, yet prop up the most despotic dictatorship in the world, and allow our companies to sell systems that spy on their own citizens, and block internet websites(yahoo, et al)

http://www.1click2cuba.com/links%20articles/022302.html

mark t, you are referencing the art of realpolitkics, first put down in the 1800's
by european diplomats as the world stage
got larger and more complex, and modern
states and spheres of influence took shape
I guess I didn't mean to sound so either-or.
You can say the same about Saudi.
All nation-state relations are simply "marriages-of-convenience", subject to change without notice.
In that sense all treaties aren't worth the paper they're written on.
Yes, the "China card" is a quite convoluted,
tricky one, lots more so now than it was in 1973, when their economy was non-existant and they all rode bicycles.
Who would have dreamed in 1973 what
China would become in just 33 years?
My concern is that it is still essentially
a totalitarian state, run as top down from the upper rungs of the communist party
as it ever was, with capabilities of surveillance only dreamed of by the Red Chinese in the 70's.
I don't think we fully know quite who we're
dealing with yet.

Mark T, another good point you made is that business just goes into the vacuum created by diplomacy and statecraft.
Once the State Department bores a hole
through relations, of course the economic faction streams through the breach.
Ultimately, though, they take their marching orders from the military and state dept.
when all is said and don, and if it is decided
in the future to close that opening partially
or completely, business has no choice
but to listen......again, business is simply
filling in a hole provided for them, that can be closed back up at anytime in the future.

Justice, the USA created, singlehandedly,
the capability China now has by technology transfer and the outsourcing of industry,
to the point where we have run up a current
accounts deficit over 900 billion. and counting, 7 percent of the entire USA
GDP. It's not a matter of the sleeping giant awakening, its a matter of massive technology transfer and greedy companies looking to get rid of wage costs and unions
in one fell swoop.
The net effect of outsourcing 900 billion
in goods, not a magical sleeping giant
awakening, is the prime cause of China's
renaissance. Nothing more or less.
My concern is that, if we continue to job
out whats left of our manufaturing base
to China, what leverage would that give them(prob a whole lot), if relations turned sour(Taiwan, N Korea, Oil resources, etc.)
I think making them, seemingly overnight,
into the trading power they are now, and disowning the working and middle class
folks whose jobs are being sent over there,
is bad news!

Justice, you say that the opening up of trade in products will automatically creating
an open chinese society, much you forget that much of that trade in is technology explicitly sold and used for surveillance
by the chinese gov't

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

I would imagine, by your screen name, that you are for peace and openness in general.
I would hope that that would include the right of chinese citizens not to be spied on with the help of Yahoo, One gentleman is spending 10 years in prison thanks to Yahoo opening up its records. My implication is that the Chinese gov't is using technology transferred from trade
with the US and others to tighten the vice
they have on their own people. Trade
is obviously increasing that vice. And, most assuredly, us corporations aren't helping the freedom of chinese citizens by selling them tech specifically marketed and sold
as surveillance.
The trade situation is much more convoluted than you mention, buddy!

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14884

Answer 1

Joe? Joe McCarthy, is that you?

Answer 2

"I don't think we fully know quite who we're dealing with yet." That was one of your last comments as you interacted with others answering your question. That sentence of yours says it all.
One of the great problems America has it that it seems it cannot operate without an enemy. I am not sure whether this is in the nature of litigious American culture, GI Joe, steroids, being overweight, having an aging, conservative majority, or the military influence, but a quick review of even the last few decades will show the pattern clearly. Russia was an "Evil Empire", there have been at least two cases of Axis of Evil, and it seems that the "you are with us or against us" mentality is prevalent in America.
This is linear thinking, looking at life simplistically as polar, good or evil (thank you Mr Bush). The reality is that life is not that simple (unless you are a fundamentalist of course).
Yes the US does not understand China. The Dragon has awoken. A visit to Shanghai would make Americans feel a little less confident about their overall superiority. I can remember well Clinton looking at China as struggling to get MFN :- Most Favoured Nation Trading Status, ( do you remember that?) a kind of threat for China to behave itself and toe the US line. Imagine the US failing to trade with a quarter of the Worlds population!
We know that if you want to change a system the last thing you should do is cut it off from trade, offer sanctions, be generally a pain in the butt. Actually trade is communication, and when populations see the benefits of washing machines, TVs , computers, mobiles etc etc then there inevitably follows social and ultimately, political change. No, China is actually moving slowly to a more open and democratic society...and America may just be moving the other way...?
Actions and perceptions of motives create and maintain enemies and friends. better to treat all countries as if they are friends and remain vigilant and of clear purpose. The Chinese* have learned that important diplomatic skill. Its time America matured, dont you think?
* Taiwan is not another country

Answer 3

There is no such things as two countries TOTALLY being friends or enemies. I mean, there are always two sides of the coin.
Take asia for an example. Taiwan and China seems to be enemies, but their citizens move between countries. They would both topple if they sever all ties.
You can also look at history to drive home this point. For example when Singapore first gained independence and looked helpless, Israel sent over their troops to train up a defence system in Singapore. This was a good move as Singapore helps them with the trade of products too.
So you cant claim countries as bitter enemies or close friends. While politics and diplomacy show one side of the story, business and economics present another side of it.

Answer 4

they're our service provider no longer a buddy or an enemy only a service provider of each and every of the crap we purchase in our each day lives. In 50 years China will carry the international position that the u . s . at the moment occupies and the u . s . stands out as the equivalent of the united kingdom today All empires fall - we are only beginning down the slope

Answer 5

No one is an enemy infact, enemies are the ones that you make yourself. As the saying goes, "try to reduce one enemy every day, and your life will be easy."

Answer 6

Bottom line. Communism is an enemy of the American way of life. That wasn't so tough now,was it?

Answer 7

our competitor