who holds the christian god accountable?

Question

Ok, so heres my question for the christians, ...

why is the idea of god himself, without an incarnate form, without a sacrifice, without a perfect blood offering, without any payment, incapable, or unwilling to forgive?

so many seem so thoroughly indoctrinated with the christian ideas... that the idea of god himself, being capable of forgiving by will alone, is unimaginable.

but why is this so? I know I have my theorys as to how these views came to be taught by the church, but how people actually accept this leap of rationale.

does it see just for people to be punished for eternity from the wrongdoings of one life?
does it seem loving to have such a scenario?

if you feel "the sacrifice" was "required" ... why would it be? I mean this is GOD here. whos keeping tabs on the books making sure each debt is paid?

wouldn't it be more loving, just, and rational, to simply require each person to do their best, repent, and then be cleansed, of sin, by will? Grace?

stupid character limit... I mean what is preventing God himself, from forgiving and "saving" by "Grace" simply because he feels like it.
why would god be bound to only be able to do so with so and such sacrifice?

putting down to man's level? no, quite the contrary. I am seeing God as NOT being bound by limitations such as man would be. its the christian version that would bring God down to man's level, with limitations on what he can and can't do.

Eazy, the blood was never the thing that did anything, it was the repentance. and it *WAS* enough, because god wished it to be. God chose to open the gates for us when we repented. you are still solving a problem that didn't exist before.

how can we relate? we might not be able to fully fathom it, but god made us in his image, and gives us the capability to think, and reason. theres no reason for it to be completely arbitrary and inconceivable.

my question is what is limiting god to make it so jesus would be needed to begin with? whats stopping god from doing the same forgiveness by grace, simply because he feels like it.

>>"And he has arranged a legal basis for extending such forgiveness—Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Romans 3:24; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; 1 John 4:9, 14.
<<

argh! this is the very crux of the question!!

what force is keeping god to some arbitrary idea of balancing the books? why would god have to "arrange a legal basis" at all? THIS IS GOD!!

most of your references are simply misunderstandings, mistranslations, and entirely irrelevant to the actual point that I'm asking.

Christianity views there to be a repentance problem that required Jesus's death to pay for, or to be a conduit, or whatever. WHY? what is preventing god from simply saying "you know what, I changed my mind, if you come to me and honestly apologize, your forgiven." and slam bam thank you mam, poof its done!

last I checked god is all powerful, so why does so much of christianity seem to think otherwise? (that he'd be bound to be unable to do so, without a payment of some sort, such as jesus)

Answer 1

Jehovah God is inclined to forgive. That is characteristic of his personality. (Exodus 34:6, 7; Psalm 86:5) Understandably, God expects us to turn to him in prayer and ask his pardon, ask that he forgive us. (2 Chronicles 6:21; Psalm 103:3, 10, 14) And he has arranged a legal basis for extending such forgiveness—Jesus’ ransom sacrifice.—Romans 3:24; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; 1 John 4:9, 14.

It is not just for people to burn in hellfire. The teaching of such is not supported by the Bible's overall message (Deut 32:35).

Over seven hundred years before Jesus’ birth, Jehovah had referred to him through the prophet Isaiah as “my servant.” He compared him to “a sheep [brought] to the slaughtering” and said that he would be given as “a guilt offering.” God would then reward him “due to the fact that he poured out his soul to the very death, . . . and he himself carried the very sin of many people, and for the transgressors he proceeded to interpose.”—Isaiah 52:13–53:12.

In Daniel’s prophecy, which revealed the time of Christ’s appearance, God also spoke of the provision of an “atonement for error” that would terminate transgression, or sin. God further made known that Christ would be “cut off” (killed) and would cause the need for sacrifice and gift offering to cease.—Daniel 9:24-27.

This was neccesary because a perfect man, Adam, voluntarily gave up perfect life through disobedience for all mankind, so Jesus, a perect man, voluntarily needed to choose perfect life through obedience. Because Adam voluntarily chose life for bad reasons, it would only seem logical for Christ to choose death for good reasons; this is what would make it a match.

However, we are sure that God does forgive us primarily by means of His grace, for we sin against Him countless times that we are unaware of, and yet He does not wait for us to repent of those unconscious sins in order for Him to forgive us (Psalm 130:3).

God has perfect standards that He requires all, including Himself to live by. Just as everything else in the universe requires balance in order to work, so would God's sentencing man to death for sinning, and later acquitting man of that same sin for repentance. Like mentioned before, a perfect man would have to die to set this off, just like a perfect man died receive sin. Here's further explanation on the ransom.

The basic idea of “ransom” is a price that covers (as in payment for damages or to satisfy justice), while “redemption” emphasizes the releasing accomplished as a result of the ransom paid. The most significant ransom price is the shed blood of Jesus Christ, which made deliverance from sin and death possible for the offspring of Adam.

In the various Hebrew and Greek terms translated “ransom” and “redeem,” the inherent similarity lies in the idea of a price, or thing of value, given to effect the ransom, or redemption. The thought of exchange, as well as that of correspondency, equivalence, or substitution, is common in all. That is, one thing is given for another, satisfying the demands of justice and resulting in a balancing of matters.

The Hebrew noun ko´pher comes from the verb ka·phar´, meaning, basically, “cover,” as in Noah’s covering the ark with tar. (Ge 6:14) Ka·phar´, however, is used almost entirely to describe the satisfying of justice through the covering of or atoning for sins. The noun ko´pher refers to the thing given to accomplish this, the ransom price. (Ps 65:3; 78:38; 79:8, 9) A covering corresponds to the thing it covers, either in its form (as in a material lid, such as the “cover [kap·po´reth]” of the ark of the covenant; Ex 25:17-22), or in its value (as in a payment to cover the damages caused by an injury).

As a means for balancing justice and setting matters straight with his people Israel, Jehovah, in the Law covenant, designated various sacrifices and offerings to atone for, or cover, sins, including those of the priests and the Levites (Ex 29:33-37; Le 16:6, 11), of other individuals, or of the nation as a whole (Le 1:4; 4:20, 26, 31, 35), as well as to purify the altar and tabernacle, making atonement because of the sins of the people surrounding these. (Le 16:16-20) In effect, the life of the animal sacrificed went in place of the life of the sinner, its blood making atonement on God’s altar, that is, to the extent that it could. (Le 17:11; compare Heb 9:13, 14; 10:1-4.) The “day of atonement [yohm hak·kip·pu·rim´]” could just as properly be referred to as the “day of the ransoms.” (Le 23:26-28) These sacrifices were required if the nation and its worship were to have and maintain the acceptance and approval of the righteous God.

Well illustrating the sense of a redeeming exchange is the law regarding a bull known to gore. If the owner allowed the bull to go loose so that it killed someone, the owner was to be put to death, paying for the life of the slain person with his own life. However, since he did not deliberately or directly kill another, if the judges viewed it proper to impose upon him a “ransom [ko´pher]” instead, then he must pay that redemption price. The sum assessed and paid was viewed as taking the place of his own life and compensating for the life lost. (Ex 21:28-32; compare De 19:21.) On the other hand, no ransom could be accepted for the deliberate murderer; only his own life could cover the death of the victim. (Nu 35:31-33) Evidently because a census involved lives, at the time such was taken each male over 20 had to have a ransom (ko´pher) of half a shekel ($1.10) given for his soul to Jehovah, the same price applying whether the individual was rich or poor.—Ex 30:11-16.

Since any imbalance of justice is displeasing to God, as well as among humans, the ransom, or covering, could have the additional effect of averting or quelling anger. (Compare Jer 18:23; also Ge 32:20, where “appease” translates ka·phar´.) The husband enraged at the man committing adultery with his wife, however, refuses any “ransom [ko´pher].” (Pr 6:35) The term may also be used with regard to those who should execute justice but who instead accept a bribe or gift as “hush money [ko´pher]” to cover over the wrongdoing in their sight.—1Sa 12:3; Am 5:12.

The foregoing information lays the basis for understanding the ransom provided for humankind through God’s Son, Christ Jesus. Mankind’s need for a ransom came about through the rebellion in Eden. Adam sold himself to do evil for the selfish pleasure of keeping continued company with his wife, now a sinful transgressor, so he shared the same condemned standing with her before God. He thereby sold himself and his descendants into slavery to sin and to death, the price that God’s justice required. (Ro 5:12-19; compare Ro 7:14-25.) Having possessed human perfection, Adam lost this valuable possession for himself and all his offspring.

The Law, which had “a shadow of the good things to come,” provided for animal sacrifices as a covering for sin. This, however, was only a symbolic or token covering, since such animals were inferior to man; hence, it was “not possible for the blood of bulls and of goats [actually] to take sins away,” as the apostle points out. (Heb 10:1-4) Those pictorial animal sacrifices had to be without blemish, perfect specimens. (Le 22:21) The real ransom sacrifice, a human actually capable of removing sins, must therefore also be perfect, free from blemish. He would have to correspond to the perfect Adam and possess human perfection, if he were to pay the price of redemption that would release Adam’s offspring from the debt, disability, and enslavement into which their first father Adam had sold them. (Compare Ro 7:14; Ps 51:5.) Only thereby could he satisfy God’s perfect justice that requires like for like, a ‘soul for a soul.’—Ex 21:23-25; De 19:21.

The strictness of God’s justice made it impossible for mankind itself to provide its own redeemer. (Ps 49:6-9) However, this results in the magnifying of God’s own love and mercy in that he met his own requirements at tremendous cost to himself, giving the life of his own Son to provide the redemption price. (Ro 5:6-8) This required his Son’s becoming human to correspond to the perfect Adam. God accomplished this by transferring his Son’s life from heaven to the womb of the Jewish virgin Mary. (Lu 1:26-37; Joh 1:14) Since Jesus did not owe his life to any human father descended from the sinner Adam, and since God’s holy spirit ‘overshadowed’ Mary, evidently from the time she conceived until the time of Jesus’ birth, Jesus was born free from any inheritance of sin or imperfection, being, as it were, “an unblemished and spotless lamb,” whose blood could prove to be an acceptable sacrifice. (Lu 1:35; Joh 1:29; 1Pe 1:18, 19) He maintained that sinless state throughout his life and thus did not disqualify himself. (Heb 4:15; 7:26; 1Pe 2:22) As a ‘sharer of blood and flesh,’ he was a near kinsman of mankind and he had the thing of value, his own perfect life maintained pure through tests of integrity, with which to repurchase mankind, emancipate them.—Heb 2:14, 15.

The Christian Greek Scriptures make clear that the release from sin and death is indeed by the paying of a price. Christians are said to be “bought with a price” (1Co 6:20; 7:23), having an “owner that bought them” (2Pe 2:1), and Jesus is presented as the Lamb who ‘was slaughtered and with his blood bought persons for God out of every tribe, tongue, and nation.’ (Re 5:9) In these texts the verb a·go·ra´zo is used, meaning simply “buy at the market [a·go·ra´].” The related e·xa·go·ra´zo (release by purchase) is used by Paul in showing that Christ released “by purchase those under law” through his death on the stake. (Ga 4:5; 3:13) But the thought of redemption or ransoming is more frequently and more fully expressed by the Greek ly´tron and related terms.

Ly´tron (from the verb ly´o, meaning “loose”) was especially used by Greek writers to refer to a price paid to ransom prisoners of war or to release those under bond or in slavery. (Compare Heb 11:35.) In its two Scriptural occurrences it describes Christ’s giving “his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28; Mr 10:45) The related word an·ti´ly·tron appears at 1 Timothy 2:6. Parkhurst’s Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament says it means: “a ransom, price of redemption, or rather a correspondent ransom.” He quotes Hyperius as saying: “It properly signifies a price by which captives are redeemed from the enemy; and that kind of exchange in which the life of one is redeemed by the life of another.” He concludes by saying: “So Aristotle uses the verb [an·ti·ly·tro´o] for redeeming life by life.” (London, 1845, p. 47) Thus Christ “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all.” (1Ti 2:5, 6) Other related words are ly·tro´o·mai, “loose by ransom” (Tit 2:14; 1Pe 1:18, 19), and a·po·ly´tro·sis, “a releasing by ransom.” (Eph 1:7, 14; Col 1:14) The similarity of the usage of these words with that of the Hebrew terms considered is evident. They describe, not an ordinary purchase or releasing, but a redeeming or ransoming, a deliverance effected by payment of a corresponding price.

Though available to all, Christ’s ransom sacrifice is not accepted by all, and “the wrath of God remains” upon those not accepting it, as it also comes upon those who first accept and then turn away from that provision. (Joh 3:36; Heb 10:26-29; contrast Ro 5:9, 10.) They gain no deliverance from the enslavement to Kings Sin and Death. (Ro 5:21) Under the Law the deliberate murderer could not be ransomed. Adam, by his willful course, brought death on all mankind, hence was a murderer. (Ro 5:12) Thus, the sacrificed life of Jesus is not acceptable to God as a ransom for the sinner Adam.

But God is pleased to approve the application of the ransom to redeem those of Adam’s offspring who avail themselves of such a release. As Paul states, “as through the disobedience of the one man many were constituted sinners, likewise also through the obedience of the one person many will be constituted righteous.” (Ro 5:18, 19) At the time of Adam’s sin and his being sentenced to death, his offspring or race were all unborn in his loins and so all died with him. (Compare Heb 7:4-10.) Jesus as a perfect man, “the last Adam” (1Co 15:45), had a race or offspring unborn in his loins, and when he died innocently as a perfect human sacrifice this potential human race died with him. He had willingly abstained from producing a family of his own by natural procreation. Instead, Jesus uses the authority granted by Jehovah on the basis of his ransom to give life to all those who accept this provision.—1Co 15:45; compare Ro 5:15-17.

Thus, Jesus was indeed “a corresponding ransom,” not for the redemption of the one sinner, Adam, but for the redemption of all mankind descended from Adam. He repurchased them so that they could become his family, doing this by presenting the full value of his ransom sacrifice to the God of absolute justice in heaven. (Heb 9:24) He thereby gains a Bride, a heavenly congregation formed of his followers. (Compare Eph 5:23-27; Re 1:5, 6; 5:9, 10; 14:3, 4.) Messianic prophecies also show he will have “offspring” as an “Eternal Father.” (Isa 53:10-12; 9:6, 7) To be such, his ransom must embrace more than those of his “Bride.” In addition to those “bought from among mankind as firstfruits” to form that heavenly congregation, therefore, others are to benefit from his ransom sacrifice and gain everlasting life through the removal of their sins and accompanying imperfection. (Re 14:4; 1Jo 2:1, 2) Since those of the heavenly congregation serve with Christ as priests and “kings over the earth,” such other recipients of the ransom benefits must be earthly subjects of Christ’s Kingdom, and as children of an “Eternal Father” they attain everlasting life. (Re 5:10; 20:6; 21:2-4, 9, 10; 22:17; compare Ps 103:2-5.) The entire arrangement manifests Jehovah’s wisdom and his righteousness in perfectly balancing the scales of justice while showing undeserved kindness and forgiving sins.—Ro 3:21-26.

Sorry for the incomplete answer before. I hope this helps.

Answer 2

I am no longer of the christian faith, for some of the very reasons in your question. Jesus and God are for the Jewish people, yes god did invite the world to join in as long as they accept the 7 commandment as stated in the Torah, therefore the ordinary people are not saved by the blood as stated in the bible, which in turn the Christians often refer to "the history = the Torah.
So in turn God can not interfere with the ordinary peoples lives, so there is no god to be held accountable and that is why they hold man accountable for all the misfortune in the world

Well since you put your question where I understand more clearly, because they system of PAYBACK every thing that happens in life there is a payback because of Jesus, why did god let Satan rule the earth, simply put God is for the Jewish and they gave the ordinary people Jesus so the Romans would leave them alone, that was so the ordinary people would walk the line and fall into the snare prepared for them, so the people are paying back, for the deal that was made at the time of Jesus death

Answer 3

The whole idea is that you as a good christian are supposed to live by a certain set of moral standards. These standards were devised by many groups of people throughout the years to serve whatever purpose they thought needed serving at the time. If you have such a set of standards then they must be followed, otherwise why have them in the first place?

Answer 4

okay first off no man can understand the thinking of God i mean its God so how can we relate. so with that out of the way you have to also look at why would God save even one of us. look at the best example i have.

the isrealites were at the foot of mt siani and moses was on the mountain talking to god. the people would not go up the mountian because they saw the vissage of gad descend to the top and were afraid because they knew that looking at the face of god ment death and god said you are good to be afraid so moses come up the mountian. so after about 10 days they decided that moses was dead and that aaron his helper should make them a new god to worship.
10 days and they decided that god that decended on the mountain wasnt good enough that makes sense to me look at people they can become used to anything so why not get used to the idea that god is up there.

and then there is the fact that jesus came down to earth to do the very thing you are asking. why did he have to come down well God made it all but he also gave free will and i guess that it might be hard for God to relate to us in some ways.

Answer 5

Salvation by Grace! Thats the way....the only way. He forgives us for everything if we are his. I am just glad I don't have to kill something to ask for and be forgiven. The guilt I feel when I do wrong is burden enough, that guilt comes from our Lord. Grace is such an uplifting thing when you feel it. He is a loving God, vengeful at times, always discipling....much like we do with our own children.

Answer 6

there was the need for a blood sacrifice and this is why... after sin entered the world man was seperated from god forever. In the old testament, God himself instructed the hebrews to present blood animal sacrifices for forgivness of sins, but these were never enought to please god and "reopen' the gates of heaven to us. So Jesus was sent to be the perfect sinless man and pay the punishments. due to jesus' sinless nature , the "curse" of sin was lifted. Jesus needed to be a man, so he could reconcile humanity with god, but he also was god, because humanity needed a savior, someone greater who could defeat sin>

Answer 7

Once again, i see another individual joining forces with Satan to take another sad, very sad attempt at putting God down to mans' level.

Answer 8

when whatever you say becomes reality you cannot lie so you are accountable for every word