The question for Christians: part three?

Question

BUDDHA DOES NOT EQUAL CREATOR OR GOD!
did any of you know this?

Answer 1

Really? I knew this, but I didn't know that Buddhists knew this as well. Thanks for enlightening me. Like I said on your first question, I don't know that much about Buddhism. Actually the only things I do know is that it originated in Asia, you have Buddha statues which you revere, and you are generally a peaceful people.

Answer 2

Yes, in fact one wide spread belief is that Buddha appeared to remind people not to eat meat as they were beginning to overlooking this crucial observance. From Vedic knowledge.

Answer 3

None of the posters said that. But Christians would agree that you need Christ for salvation.

Bless you

Answer 4

We know ....already even!

Jesus is Creator God...

Answer 5

Who really cares.

Answer 6

Thank you for agreeing with us.

Answer 7

On a recent visit to a forum, a Buddhist participant brought out a list of parallels between Buddha and Jesus. This list is apparently one of those sorts that takes on a life of its own and gets passed around the Internet uncritically; a search reveals over a dozen sites now using it. I asked the Buddhist for documentation from primary Buddhist documents/scriptures and he declined, oddly enough saying he did not have the needed access or familiarity with primary Buddhist documents! So we'll make long-term a project out of trying to track some of these "parallels" down. It will take a while, because many are from books older than the hills and we can only get them by interlibrary loan, or if someone out there happens to have them nearby. In the meantime we'll offer what comments we can. If the list seems out of order to those who have seen it, it is because I am collecting claims by author/title and rearranging the list for convenience.

Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.)
Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.)
When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.)
Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38) Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10). Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left: For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.) For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11).
The work referenced is Ernest deBunsen's The Angel-Messiah of Buddhists, Essenes, and Christians, and thanks to a reader in North Carolina, we now have copies of the relevant pages. de Bunsen (1819-1903) seems to have been one of those eclectic writers; his other books include The keys of Saint Peter, or, The house of Rechab connected with the history of symbolism and idolatry; The hidden wisdom of Christ and the key of knowledge, or, History of the Apocrypha; and Islam, or true Christianity : including a chapter on Mahomed's place in the church. I'm guessing we have a real authority here. His book we want was published in 1880 and is only available in 15 libraries according to OCLC. One might question how the original composer of this list got access to so many obscure sources at one time.

A fellow researcher passed on some info on deBunsen which I cannot check (it comes from a Masonic website), but for what it is worth:

One of the first of the spiritual explorers, a Dutch writer named Ernest de Bunsen, equated the Asian concept of an "angel messiah"- -a messiah from another world--with Jesus. In his fanciful 1880 book The Angel-Messiah of Buddhists, Essenes, and Christians, he told of Jews returning from the Babylonian Exile, transporting in their caravans not only rare spices from the East but also a revolutionary concept. According to de Bunsen, the angel myth was adopted by the Essenes, a Jewish sect living in the desert during the first century, who applied it to Jesus. But Jesus, de Bunsen claimed, refuted the Essenes and tried to hide the fact that he was the messiah. Difficult to believe in any era, de Bunsen's theory was completely discredited with the 1947 discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls, which most scholars attribute to the Essenes. To date, the remains of about 800 scrolls have been discovered; not one mentions Jesus or an "angel messiah." But here you see the 'Angel from another world' is really One and the Same person because the 'Masters name' is never revealed.
And now that we have those pages, what of the claims? Well:

Both Buddha and Jesus were baptized in the presence of the "spirit" of G--d. (De Bunsen, p. 45; Matthew 3:16.) Well, no, that's not what de Bunsen says. He says that near the end of his life, Buddha was "transfigured or 'baptized with fire'" (how's that for linguistic equivocation!) when a "flame of light" descended on him and "encircled the crown of his head." As this happened he shone "as the brightness of the sun and moon" and bystanders saw his body divided into three parts, each of which put forth a ray of light. deBunsen does not list a primary Buddhist document as a source, but rather, four other works on Buddhism from his own time! But enough to say that the "baptism" is no match and there is no reference to any "spirit", much less God's.
Both went to their temples at the age of twelve, where they are said to have astonished all with their wisdom. (Ibid., p. 37; Luke 2:41--48.) This is not quite correct. Buddha reportedly was educated from age 8 to 12 by masters, and was then presented at (not "went to") the temple, where all the statues rose and threw themselves at his feet. He then "explains and asks learned questions and excels all those who enter into competition with him." In essence, this was Buddha taking his SATs. deBunsen, however, again cites no primary source, nor does he give a date for his source. His assertion is therefore worthless for lack of being able to be investigated without looking for a needle in a haystack.
When Buddha died: "The coverings of [his] body unrolled themselves, and the lid of his coffin was opened by supernatural powers." (De Bunsen, p. 49.) Not quite. deBunsen says that this is probably a later legend, and after the parts about the coverings and the lid, adds: "...and Gautama Buddha's feet appeared to his disciples in the form which they knew so well." This is accompanied by a note that his feet were wet because a female mourner had cried on them. (Apparently the Buddha's feet have been venerated by his followers; see here.) deBunsen cites as a source Beal, who in turn supposedly cited the Vinaya-Pitaka. What is this? Several Buddhist websites identify this as here says that, "Textual studies based on language dating techniques reveal that most rules with relation to the monastic life are of a more recent date." How recent is not specified.

Buddha answered the "devil": "Get you away from me." (De Bunsen, p.38) Jesus responded: "...begone, Satan!" (Matthew 4:10). Both experienced the "supernatural" after the "devil" left: For Buddha: "The skies rained flowers, and delicious odors prevailed [in] the air." (Ibid.) For Jesus: "angels came and ministered to him" (Matthew 4:11). Devil? More like Mara, the god of death, and "Get you away from me" appears nowhere in deBunsen's text. Buddha gave Mara a rather long reply (which deBunsen truncates, actually!) in which Buddha threatens Mara, and after which Mara apparently leaves -- without being told to bug off. There is no mention of flowers or odors -- other than the suspicious scent of inaccuracy. deBunsen refers to "supernatural effects" in heaven and earth with people being healed and fed to satisfaction, and even demons getting happy. But no blossoms.
So this was our first close look at a source used for this list -- and the score for accuracy is dismal.

Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty--seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.)
Both had a disciple who "walked" on water: To convert skeptical villagers, Buddha showed them his disciple walking across a river without sinking. (Lillie, p. 140) "He said: `Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus, but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out: `Lord, save me!' " (Matthew 14:29--30).
Lillie was also a bit of a basket case from the looks of some of his titles: Buddhism in Christendom: or, Jesus, the Essene; Modern mystics and modern magic; containing a full biography of the Rev. William Stainton Moses, together with sketches of Swedenborg, Boehme, Madame Guyon, the Illuminati, the kabbalists, the theosophists, the French spiritists, the Society of Psychical Research, etc. (this was an age of long titles , and Râma and Homer; an argument that in the Indian epics Homer found the theme of his two great poems, which would make at one classical scholar we know have fits. You may also like his Croquet: its history, rules, and secrets if it wasn't another Arthur Lillie who wrote it.

We may note to start that the "walking on water" parallel is rather broad. The purpose of the miracles is decidedly different. Moreover, let's recall that for Jesus the OT already said of God, "Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea." (Job 9:8) Jesus had the "idea" long before Buddha lived. A reader has also added: Edwin Yamauchi, a distinguished professor of ancient history at Miami University in Ohio claims that the first biography of the Buddha was written in the first century. Kenneth Ch'en claims that the Pali (1st-cent BC) contains stories of the Buddha. However, no miracles stories appear until the Sanskrit nearly 200 years later. Graham Twelftree, a historical Jesus scholar who has specialized in the miracles of Jesus (Jesus: The Miracle Worker) claims that there are no clear reports of miracle workers like Jesus within 200 years of his life, before or after. Thus, the "walking on water" story was probably borrowed by a certain sect of Buddhism such as the Chinese Dhammapada after Jesus.

However, thanks to a reader at BYU, we now have a copy of these pages and here is our report:

Both supposedly fasted in solitude for a long time: Buddha for forty-seven days and Jesus for forty. (Arthur Lillie, Buddha and Early Buddhism (London, 1881), p. 100, Matthew 4:2.) Actually Lillie reports that Buddha engaged in a "fast" of sorts for six years -- during which he lived on daily food of "a grain of the jujube-tree" which eventually dwindled to a "grain of rice." THEN he notes a Chinese version of the story in which Buddha fasts for 47 days. No source name or date is given for this Chinese version and Lillie's description amounts to one sentence. I will consider this a "ringer" and/or worthless unless someone can produce this Chinese version and tell us when it dates to.
Both had a disciple who "walked" on water: To convert skeptical villagers, Buddha showed them his disciple walking across a river without sinking. (Lillie, p. 140) "He said: `Come.' So Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water and came to Jesus, but when he saw the wind, he was afraid, and beginning to sink he cried out: `Lord, save me!' " (Matthew 14:29--30). This is cited truly from Lillie, but the source for this story is cited as the Chinese Dhammapada, with again no indication of date. This is one of several Jesus-like miracles Lillie reports, including multiplying food and stopping a storm.

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At the conclusion of their fasts, they both wandered to a fig tree. (Hans Joachim Schoeps, An Intelligent Person's Guide to the Religions of Mankind (London, 1967), p. 167; Matthew 21:18-19.)
This one is actually a "ringer" already because Jesus did not "wander" to a fig tree, but went to it purposefully, and did not do so at the end of a fast. But we now have this page from Schoeps' book courtesy of a reader at BYU -- and it says nothing about this at all. P. 167 is mostly a sermon of Buddha on a "middle path" of avoiding the extremes of violent asceticism and worldly activity. No fig tree, no fast.

Both were about the same age when they began their public ministry: "When he [Buddha] went again to the garden he saw a monk who was calm, tranquil, self--possessed, serene, and dignified. The prince, determined to become such a monk, was led to make the great renunciation. At the time he was twenty--nine years of age...". (Encyclopedia Americana (New York: Rand McNally and Co., 1963), vol. 4, p. 672.) "Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23).
We've noted in other contexts that this isn't much of a parallel -- the big "three oh" was a standard age of transition among the ancients. But we'll see if modern copies of EA are still reporting this. After the great Pope Leo X encyclopedia citation scandal, I'm sure not accepting cites like these at face value. Unfortunately, I have no way of checking to see if a 1963 encyclo is anywhere near me, so I'll do as I did with Leo and ask select readers to see if there is one near them.

Both were tempted by the "devil" at the beginning of their ministry: To Buddha, he said: "Go not forth to adopt a religious life but return to your kingdom, and in seven days you shall become emperor of the world, riding over the four continents." (Moncure D. Conway, The Sacred Anthology (London, 1874), p. 173.) To Jesus, he said: "All these [kingdoms of the world] I will give you, if you fall down and worship me" (Matthew 4:9).
Conway seems to have been a prolific author; among his works were a biography of Thomas Paine. This one is also "hard to get" though even easier (less than 100 libraries have it) so this will take a while.

The multitudes required a sign from both in order that they might believe. (Muller, Science, p. 27; Matthew 16:1.)
Buddha "represented himself as a mere link in a long chain of enlightened teachers." (Muller, Science, p. 140.) Jesus said: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law, and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfill them" (Matthew 5:17).
According to the Somadeva (a Buddhist holy book), a Buddhist ascetic's eye once offended him, so he plucked it out and cast it away. (Ibid., p. 245) Jesus said: "If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out, and throw it away;" (Matthew 5:29).
"Buddha taught that the motive of all our actions should be pity or love of our neighbor." (Ibid., p. 249) Jesus taught: "...love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you" (Matthew 5:44).
Buddha said: "Hide your good deeds, and confess before the world the sins you have committed." (Ibid., p.28) Jesus said: "Beware of practicing your piety before men to be seen by them;" (Matthew 6:1) and "Therefore confess your sins one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed..." (James 5:16).
"One day Ananda, the disciple of Buddha, after a long walk in the country, meets with Matangi, a woman of the low caste of the Kandalas, near a well, and asks her for some water. She tells him what she is, and that she must not come near him. But he replies: `My sister, I ask not for your caste or your family, I ask only for a drought of water. She afterwards became a disciple of Buddha." (Muller, Science, p. 243) "There came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her: `Give me a drink.' For his disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. The Samaritan woman said to him: `How is it that you, a Jew, ask a drink of me, a woman of Samaria?' For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans" (John 4:7--9).
The author "Muller" and the title "Science" is one we we'll have to investigate last, or not at all, because it could be any one of several books: Max Muller's Lectures on the science of religion, with a paper on Buddhist nihilism, and a translation of the Dhammapada or "Path of virtue"; Herbert Muller's Science & criticism; the humanistic tradition in contemporary thought; or Max's Contributions to the science of mythology, or Science of Thought -- the fact that such an incomplete citation is offered is perhaps significant. Note, however, that there is really no parallel at all in cites 2 and 4 of this cluster, and cite 5 is merely a parallel of a universal moral teaching of humility; similar sentiments are found in contemporary Jewish and Roman literature [Keener, Matthew commentary, 207]. These kinds of parallels simply are not significant.

Both strove to establish a kingdom of heaven on earth. (Beal, p. x; Matthew 4:17.)
"Beal"? This might be Samuel Beal, who wrote a book called Buddhism in China in 1884 but also co-authored over a dozen other books related to Buddhism. Yet we don't even get a title for this cite! This is yet another citation so vague it deserves 10 to 20 on bread and water. We'll have to out this one at the end of the list as well.

Both are said to have known the thoughts of others: "By directing his mind to the thoughts of others, [Buddha] can know the thoughts of all beings." (R. Spence Hardy, The Legends and Theories of the Buddhists Compared with History and Science (London, 1866), p. 181.) "But Jesus, knowing their thoughts, said: `Why do you think evil in your hearts?' " (Matthew 9:4).
Both received similar receptions: "The people swept the pathway, the gods strewed flowers on the pathway and branches of the coral tree, the men bore branches of all manner of trees, and the Bodhisattva Sumedha spread his garments in the mire, [and] men and gods shouted: `All hail.' " (Hardy, Legends, p.134) "And they brought the colt to Jesus, and threw their garments on it; and he sat on it. And many spread their garments on the road, and others spread leafy branches which they had cut from the fields" (Mark 11:7--8).
Hardy's book was written in 1866 and can be found at less than 75 libraries. So yes -- expect a wait here as well.

After "healing" a man born blind, Buddha said: "The disease of this man originates in his sinful actions in former times." (Prof. Max Muller, ed., Sacred Books of the East (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1879--1910), vol. 21, p. 129f.) "As [Jesus] passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. And his disciples said to him: `Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' " (John 9:1--2).
We don't even have to get this one, because even if correct it is misdirected. John 9:2 is often twisted to refer to reincarnation, but it actually refers to Jewish beliefs that an infant could sin in the womb. There is no parallel here even if the cite is accurate.

Both were itinerant preachers with a close group of trustees within a larger group of disciples. (James Hastings, ed., Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics (New York: Edinburgh T. & T. Clark, 1918), vol. 6, p. 883; Matthew 26:20.)
"The number of the disciples rapidly increased, and Gautama sent forth his monks on missionary tours hither and thither, bidding them wander everywhere, preaching the doctrine, and teaching men to order their lives with self--restraint, simplicity, and charity." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883) "And [Jesus] called to him the twelve [apostles], and began to send them out two by two.So they went out and preached that men should repent" (Mark 6:7, 12).
Both had an archival: "[Buddha's] chief rival was Devadatta, a cousin of the Buddha, who is represented as being jealous of his influence and popularity, and as repeatedly seeking to compass his death." (Hastings, vol. 6, p.883) "While [Jesus] was still speaking, Judas came, one of the twelve, and with him a great crowd with swords and clubs, from the chief priests and the elders of the people. Now the betrayer had given them a sign, saying: `The one I shall kiss is the man; seize him!' And he came up to Jesus at once, and said: `Hail, Master!' And he kissed him" (Matthew 26:47--49).
We need not even touch the first two of these, because the process of gaining disciples and sending them out to spread the message is a universal -- it's found in the lives of moral teachers all over the world and all through time and as such is a meaningless and generalized parallel. The last one is a case of collapsed generalization. From here, a reputable source online about Buddhism, we get this story, which shows that the parallel to Judas is superficial and only accomplished by generalizing and collapsing down terms:

Devadatta was a cousin of the Buddha who entered the Order and gained supernormal powers of the mundane plane (puthujjana-iddhi). Later, however, he began to harbour thoughts of jealousy and ill will toward his kinsman, the Buddha, and his two chief disciples, Sâriputta and Mahâ Moggallâna, with the ambition of becoming the leader of the Sangha, the Order of Monks.
Devadatta wormed himself into the heart of Ajâtasattu, the young prince, the son of King Bimbisâra. One day when the Blessed One was addressing a gathering at the Veluvana Monastery, where the king, too, was present, Devadatta approached the Buddha, saluted him, and said: "Venerable sir, you are now enfeebled with age. May the Master lead a life of solitude free from worry and care. I will direct the Order."
The Buddha rejected this overture and Devadatta departed irritated and disconcerted, nursing hatred and malice toward the Blessed One. Then, with the malicious purpose of causing mischief, he went to Prince Ajâtasattu, kindled in him the deadly embers of ambition, and said:
"Young man, you had better kill your father and assume kingship lest you die without becoming the ruler. I shall kill the Blessed One and become the Buddha."
So when Ajâtasattu murdered his father and ascended the throne Devadatta suborned ruffians to murder the Buddha, but failing in that endeavour, he himself hurled down a rock as the Buddha was climbing up Gijjhakûta Hill in Râjagaha. The rock tumbled down, broke in two, and a splinter slightly wounded the Buddha. Later Devadatta made an intoxicated elephant charge at the Buddha; but the animal prostrated himself at the Master's feet, overpowered by his loving-kindness. Devadatta now proceeded to cause a schism in the Sangha, but this discord did not last long. Having failed in all his intrigues, Devadatta retired, a disappointed and broken man. Soon afterwards he fell ill, and on his sick-bed, repenting his follies, he desired to see the Buddha. But that was not to be; for he died on the litter while being carried to the Blessed One. Before his death, however, he uttered repentance and sought refuge in the Buddha
Both demanded that their disciples renounce all worldly possessions. (Hardy, Monachism, p. 6; Luke 14:33.)
Before his death, Buddha said to his disciple: "Ananda, when I am gone, you must not think there is no Buddha; the discourses I have delivered, and the precepts I have enjoined, must be my successors, or representatives, and be to you as Buddha." (Hardy, Eastern Monachism (London, 1860), p. 230.) Before his "ascension," Jesus said to his disciples: "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age" (Matthew 28:19--20).
Like Hardy's book above, this was written in the mid-1800s; it is found in less than 100 libraries. So yes -- another wait. (Though we would note in passing that forsaking of possessions is a moral universal!)

Each repeated a question three times: "The Buddha next addressed the bhikkhus and requested them three times to ask him if they had any doubt or question that they wished clarified, but they all remained silent." (Encyclopedia Britannica (New York: William and Helen Benton, 1974), vol. 2, p. 373.) "[Jesus] said to him the third time: `Simon, son of John, do you love me?' Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time: `Do you love me?'" (John 21:17).
Same note as above on the other encyclo. If anyone has a 1974 Britannica nearby, please advise. A reader with a 1973 edition has recently advised us:

I don't know how much they changed from 1973 to 1974, but Buddhism is covered in volume 4, not 2. Buddha himself is covered in volume 10, under Gautama Buddha. The entry itself takes up a whole half page, including the bibliography. I found no mention of Buddha asking three times for anything in either entry. What it did say, though, was that Buddhist scriptures were not written down until different sects had emerged, and each sect wrote their own set. The earliest extant Indian language version wasn't recorded until six centuries after Buddha.
It should be fairly noted that 1973 was the 14th ed. of the EB (1929-1973) while 1974 started the 15th ed., but I consider it unlikely that there were substantive changes. The burden is still on the critic.

"In the year 217 B.C. Buddhist missionaries were imprisoned for preaching; but an angel, genie or spirit came and opened the prison door, and liberated them." (Thomas Thornton, A History of China from the Earliest Records to the Treaty with Great Britain in 1842 (London, 1844), vol. 1, p. 341.) "They arrested the apostles and put them in the common prison. But at night an angel of the L--rd opened the prison doors and brought them out" (Acts 5:18--19).
This book is found in only ONE library in the entire US. It does happen to be near us, so we will try to get hold of it. But how then did the original listmaker get hold of this and so many other obscure titles at once?

Both men's disciples are said to have been miracle workers. (Maria L. Child, The Progress of Religious Ideas Through Successive Ages (New York, 1855)vol. 1, p. 229, Acts 3:6--8.)
This one is a vague generalization - miracle working is a paradigm in many religious faiths for founders and disciples alike - but we'll look at anyway. Our contact at BYU sent us copies of this page, which only generally says that, "Innumerable are the miracles ascribed to Buddhist saints" -- no dates or names are given; these "disciples" could have been years and miles from the original Buddha. In fact Child seems to be talking about Buddhists who live in her own day, as she speaks of them in the present tense. The only specific miracles Child notes are that those who consecrate an image to Buddha are promised no eternal torment, earthly slavery, or earthly deformity. Child does not mention or compare to Jesus.


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