ok ok i know these questions are asked all the time, but i don't get to read all them so i ask for myself.(a good friend of mine is christian and he and i often debate these things but i wanted outsider point of views)
essentially man is supossed to have free will, correct? but god is also supposed to know all. so by this equation, god would already know if someone were going to do something bad. in which case the person wouldn't get their gold star for the day. i'm not grasping how it's free will. it just kind of seems like it should say "you have free will, as long as it's my will, otherwise you'll be punished." explain that to me please.
2006-09-15 05:42:07 · 31 answers · asked by Kismet 7 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
religion shouldn't be a sink or swim thing. it's definiately a trial by fire though.
2006-09-15 06:03:14 · update #1
'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.
If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.
For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.
If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.
Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.
So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.
Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.
So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.
The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.
So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:
1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.
2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.
3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."
Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.
It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.
They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.
However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.
Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.
2006-09-15 05:49:03 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
An omniscient being may exist. If that being is the creator of something, anything, that thing is created knowing whatit will accomplish. Therefore, free will is not compatible with an omniscient creator. Look at it this way. Say someone is an engineer. They design and build a machine that learns on it's own. But this engineer knows how this design will interact with the environment, and that it will ultimately do something horrible. If that happened, the engineer would be responsible. from the perspective of the machine, it may have seemed to be it's choice, but that appearance of freedom was also inevitable from the design of the engineer.
2006-09-15 06:09:15 · answer #2 · answered by neil s 7 · 1⤊ 0⤋
This is a good question. When I was in my Philosophy 101 class we had to cover this very question, and the conclusion I was lead to was this. Now, God knows everything... correct? Hold onto that thought for moment while I give you an example. Lets say I KNOW that at 8:00 pm, some show will come on TV. Later that day that show comes on TV at 8:00 pm. The question to ask is this, did my knowledge of the fact that the show would air at 8:00 pm some how effect the fact that it came on when it did? The answer? No.
God may know everything that's has happened, is happening, and will happen, but that does not mean He is ruling our lives because of it. Knowing something will happen is very different from influencing something. God knows how our choices during the day will play out and how the future will play out, but that doesn't mean He is some how ruling our lives because of that simple fact.
I hope that this helps you with your question.
2006-09-15 05:52:19 · answer #3 · answered by link_althor 2 · 1⤊ 2⤋
Free will is an illusion anyway, regardless of the existence or otherwise of a god. I base this on the trivial observation that you cannot choose what to think before you think it. Thoughts come into your mind unbidden, and you cannot choose what your next thought is going to be, because you would have to already be thinking of it in order to choose to think it, and that leads to an infinite regression.
Undoubtedly there is the influence of cause and effect - something happens to you, and you then think about it - and perhaps there is also a completely random element, but the same could be said of the weather, and we don't say that the weather therefore has free will.
So, if we cannot choose what to think, then we cannot choose what to do either, since our actions are (generally) guided by our thoughts (and any action that is *not* guided by our thoughts wouldn't be characterised as 'will' of any sort anyway).
Hence, as far as I can tell, free will does not exist.
2006-09-15 05:44:34 · answer #4 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 1⤋
Here's a simplistic, albeit rather sci-fi, example to how free will works, in my eyes.
Imagine time-travelling, and watching medieval Europe... a jousting tournament is occuring. Now, from reading history books, you already know that Sir Dragonbreath is going to die from being trampled by his own horse, and his demise causes the dark ages to get even darker (but we wind up with the utopian world of your time directly because of it, somehow... forgive the deus ex machina). It is his choice to don the armor, and ride that horse.
You having foreknowledge of the event and what transpires next does not force him to pick that particular crappy lance and panicky horse... now, you could tell him about his bad choice, knowing full well that if he lives the dark ages may very well last until your time, or you choice just let him ride off, knowing that his death will mean a life of happiness for billions. In the end, you decide the lives of many would be worth the life of one taken by accident. So, you say nothing, and allow known history to play out.
...and even if you had said something, the arrogant jerk probably would have ignored you anyway.
2006-09-15 07:30:17 · answer #5 · answered by seraphim_pwns_u 5 · 0⤊ 1⤋
Free will is the choice to obey or disobey. It is the ability to make mistakes and learn from them. It is the opportunity for spiritual growth. If God had wanted us to behave like robots, then that is the way he would have created us. Instead, he gave us the ability to make mistakes, as well as make correct decisions. God established certain rules in the beginning based upon his infinite wisdom, and he cannot violate those rules, else he would not be perfect and his word could not be trusted. The covenants that he has made with man are permanent and unbreakable---God is not a covenant breaker like men are. Part of the reason for giiving humankind free will is to show mankind God's superiority over men and women as far as his ability to keep his word.
2006-09-15 05:54:16 · answer #6 · answered by Preacher 6 · 1⤊ 2⤋
The way I've always thought of it, in light of free will, we all have choices. God's trying to steer us in a direction, to achieve an end with each of our lives. I believe at points we have the free will choice to decide which path we're going to take. Sometimes we choose poorly and our road becomes harder, but the ability to get to that final point is still there. I think God knows and sees all based on our current direction. As soon as we change that direction or make the wrong choice, our end result then changes and He knows it. I don't think that, at our birth, He knows with certainty that we'll die not believing in Him. That would take away free will.
It's not all that clear to me or any of us most likely. It's something we wrestle with. I know I'm still wrestling, and I hope you continue to. The benefits are beyond belief. I used to be an athiest. God bless you.
2006-09-15 05:48:03 · answer #7 · answered by luvwinz 4 · 1⤊ 1⤋
I think God does have the ability to know everything. But, I also believe He can choose not to know something. I think if we say He doesn't have that ability then we are limiting Him. If in the days of Noah God knew for certain the world would be full of evil the way it was why did He say He regretted ever making man? Why did God call Saul to be king? Only for later Saul to screw up and have the calling removed from him?
Imagine your going to be watching a movie and you know exactly how it goes. Would it be very interesting? Would it be better to see how the movie goes as you are watching it? That's kind of how I see God. The bible says it is His will that none of us perish. I don't think He goes down a line saying ok Heaven, Heaven, Hell ,Heaven, etc. I think it is His will that we all go to Heaven. It is our free will that makes the deciding factor. Please don't take that as disrespect to God. I just think if we try to say He can't turn off the knowledge we are limiting Him. Who are we to say what God can and can't choose to do.
2006-09-15 05:56:29 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 2⤋
No, man isn't necessarily supposed to have free will, you've got to get away from that premise. He has only the ability to choose against God. Foreknowledge doesn't have to mean "just knowing". In the biblical sense, knowing also means loving, and that means God has foreLOVED his own. Otherwise, YOU ARE CORRECT, it is absurd to have God knowing how we will choose-- but at the same time not knowing how we will choose (by definition!), if we truly do have free will. I have not yet heard an adequate answer from the Arminians on this issue.
2006-09-15 06:04:00 · answer #9 · answered by ccrider 7 · 0⤊ 2⤋
Just because God knows what we will choose does not mean that we don't have free will. You are confusing free will with God's foreknowledge. Think of this. Someone is a high school senior trying to decide where to go to college. They have 5 choices. Just because God already knows which one they will choose does not mean that they did not have free will in this situation. They can choose any school they want to. It's just that God already knows which one it will be.
2006-09-15 05:44:23 · answer #10 · answered by cnm 4 · 0⤊ 1⤋