** LOGIC ALERT *** Question for Atheists and Agnostics ** LOGIC ALERT **?

Question

Ok, so, you ever read the thing religious people say in an answer to your question, the thing about "you've never seen wind so how do you know it exists" this guy just now said "i've never seen my liver so according to your logic it doesn't exist".

So heh, do an autopsy on a dead guy. Oops! Seeing is believing.

The thing with the wind, how do you argue with someone like this, where do they get that stuff? It's like saying the lighting and thunder is God, well I have never seen pressure changes and temperature changes, but something tells me the pressure changes and temperatures *might* be more so a cause of lighting and thunder along with electric charges, etc. then "god".

How do you argue with these people? Is it just inevitable that some see natural explanations and some fantasize the opposite?

Answer 1

hey jimmy
nice to see you again, how you've been

to answer your question, take 2 friends of yours and on top of a high building, one of them with binoculars, aim for something that you see and describe it to yourself, and ask the 1st to describe it, and ask the the guy with binoculars to verify it.
you can be wrong, he can be wrong, you can both be wrong but the thing is still there and both of you just had different views of what it is.
i have the binoculars :)
peace man
nice to see you again

Answer 2

That is the most rambling bit of crap that I ever heard. Because you can't see it, it doesn't exist??? I am an Atheist and that is not even close to how I think. Are we really that misunderstood?

Look if you want to claim something is real, it is up to you to prove it. I don't believe in an invisible man that made the whole universe in 7 days and put his most important creation (again I don't buy this part either) on an insignificant speck because I have see absolutely no evidence save a 2000 year old book written by unknown religious zealots. This has about the same level of proof as Charles Manson has that he is god. In fact I know Charles Manson is a real historical figure, so I think I might be closer to being a Family member.

If you think that more power to you. But you need to come up with a little more evidence than that for me.

Wind can be measured = Evidence = something is there. Not hard.

We can recreate lightning at least in a smaller scale so I think I got a pretty good handle on that too.

Tell me how to measure god. That would be a good start.

Prayers don't work, there are plenty of studies. Flip a coin a thousand times and pray really hard for heads. Hell, get the whole Billy Graham group and all the Catholics put together to pray. It will still be within a few flips of 500 each way. I'd think you would at least make 700 or so.

Heavens up right. Says that over and over. We can see pretty far out with Hubble (and pretty far back in time as a result) and it hasn't shown up. How far up? And since the world is round which version of up. That covers a lot of ground. But it ain't where it was supposed to be.

Answer 3

You can FEEL wind. You can see wind in action with smoke. I've also heard this one. This guy was like this. "Can I ask you a question? This is a question even 5 year olds understand. You see that building over there? You've never seen the person building it, right? But how do you know that a person built it?" Well, gee... I've seen people building other buildings. But I have not seen God creating new planets or life. I do see evolution creating new species though. And if I haven't seen a person building a building, I could see animals in wildlife building shelters for themselves. So I can logically come to the conclusion that things are built through beings, and do not come from nothing. And I can logically come to the conclusion that life comes in existence through atoms and elements in the universe.

Answer 4

I'm coming to realize that there's no way to argue with those whose logic mechanism is so underdeveloped that they can't see when logic is not being followed. They commit so many standard logical fallacies. Without formally naming them, the 'wind' and 'liver' arguments involves the person a) falsely characterizing your argument against god as being confined to a specific measuring mechanism (e.g. sight) and then b) making an invalid analogy to a real-world mechanism where that PARTICULAR measuring mechanism is not sufficient to register it. It's so contrived - in the case of god, your argument is that there are absolutely no scientific measuring devices or human sensory mechanisms that can yield evidence for God. But the illogical arguer (to make his contrived point) mischaracterizes your lack of belief in god as being based solely on not being able to SEE god and then picks real-world things where sight can't measure the thing and then ... voila! They prove that your logic leads to a conclusion that the real-world thing doesn't exist. They use things like atoms, etc. -- things that our eyes can't see but that we can measure using scientific equipment. Wind and livers are even more of a stretch when we realize we can feel wind, measure it with scientific instruments, and even see it blowing against trees, etc,; the liver analogy follows what you said. I want our school curricula to change where logic and logic fallacies are taught in first year of high school and standardized tests are required that test the selection of valid, developed arguments. History and other classes need to change their testing criteria where questions are asked and research and logic are needed to support one's answers. Now, with all this being said -- the best and most satisfying way to resolve this issue: cultivate an attitude where winning an argument has no value. Pretend the other person is you and try not to compare or judge. It ultimately feels bad when we make others into objects for our egos, regardless of whether we're 'right' or not. And, most importantly, if you do this successfully for a period of time, let me know how because I fail miserably :).

Answer 5

I can't see wind. I can't see gravity.

I can see the direct effects that each has directly on me or other things I can directly observe. Therefore I *know* them to be real.

I'm pretty sure I have a liver. The hangovers prove that, don't they?

When it comes to God, I can't even see indirect evidence of His existence. All I get is a bunch of people telling me "He's real". But nothing I can observe, directly or indirectly.

Answer 6

Don't get discouraged, Jim. I've had a few emails from people that have opened their eyes and have begun to think right. It's an extremely daunting task to try to argue with their circular logic, but we keep at it anyway.

Answer 7

Actually Jimbo, you can see wind. You see it in twisters or you see it in what is used by automakers - wind tunnels. Since I can see it - I know it exists. Since I can feel it I know it exists. I can't feel God - well, unless she is under the desk in stilleto's but I have the feeling these Christian Terrorists are referring to a different type of God.

Answer 8

Some ppl are lost without an argument. Some ppl are lost if they think they have sole responsibility for their destiny. Usually these ppl are relieved to know that someone else took the fall for them you know Jesus. They can also say, "oh the devil made me do it" It's a someone made me do it mentality. They have to believe it. Have to!!! With them there will be no rhyme or reason.

Answer 9

Dude, we have 5 senses to detect many things, but if you want to be a little smart *** about it, we can always look at dust storms and other things that get propelled by the wind.

Answer 10

Well I'm fairly certain he's never seen a wind tunnel in action otherwise he'd know about flow visualization techniques.