Jesus supposedly dies for the sins of the people of the world. It is presented to us as the ultimate show of love for us by the Christian 'god'. "For god so LOVED the WORLD that he gave his only Begotten son.........".
Ok, few questions.
1. If Jesus didn't exist before he was made by God and Mary, then really how much of a sacrafice was it for God to give up this son, with whom he had no relationship with before it was born?
2. If Jesus was just going to come back three days later after making this ultimate sacrafice with more powers and abilities than before, then what exactly did God and Jesus 'give up' when he died? Could God not contact Jesus while he was 'dead' (for 3 days)?
3. If every man is the son of God, (and none of THEM have ever been resurrected, save Lazarus) wouldn't it have been more of a sacrafice for God to have someone to die for our sins that COULDN'T just pop back up three days later and be A-OK?
Just wondering....
2006-09-14 06:41:13 · 16 answers · asked by bleedcoltsblue 2 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Alrighty guys. Some good answers here. So here is a reply for those of you who say that Jesus existed from the start. OK, if Jesus existed from the start, then how the heck was he begotten? There was only God at the beginning right? No angels, no heaven, and God didn't have a wife... so.... Also, if Jesus was around through the creation of heaven and earth, through the battle for heaven between God and his angels vs the Devil and his angels.. Then why does Jesus only get a 'one-line' shout out in the bible before he is born? I mean think about it, if God knows all, and he knew exactly what Jesus' purpose was before it even happened, then don't you think that there'd be a little more in the bible about what he would have been doing during some of the major events of the world? Hell, did even the JEWS know about Jesus before he was born? What about Adam and Eve who ate from the tree of knowledge???
2006-09-14 07:06:39 · update #1
Alrighty guys. Some good answers here. So here is a reply for those of you who say that Jesus existed from the start. OK, if Jesus existed from the start, then how the heck was he begotten? There was only God at the beginning right? No angels, no heaven, and God didn't have a wife... so.... Also, if Jesus was around through the creation of heaven and earth, through the battle for heaven between God and his angels vs the Devil and his angels.. Then why does Jesus only get a 'one-line' shout out in the bible before he is born? I mean think about it, if God knows all, and he knew exactly what Jesus' purpose was before it even happened, then don't you think that there'd be a little more in the bible about what he would have been doing during some of the major events of the world? Hell, did even the JEWS know about Jesus before he was born? What about Adam and Eve who ate from the tree of knowledge???
2006-09-14 07:07:02 · update #2
Alrighty guys. Some good answers here. So here is a reply for those of you who say that Jesus existed from the start. OK, if Jesus existed from the start, then how the heck was he begotten? There was only God at the beginning right? No angels, no heaven, and God didn't have a wife... so.... Also, if Jesus was around through the creation of heaven and earth, through the battle for heaven between God and his angels vs the Devil and his angels.. Then why does Jesus only get a 'one-line' shout out in the bible before he is born? I mean think about it, if God knows all, and he knew exactly what Jesus' purpose was before it even happened, then don't you think that there'd be a little more in the bible about what he would have been doing during some of the major events of the world? Hell, did even the JEWS know about Jesus before he was born? What about Adam and Eve who ate from the tree of knowledge???
2006-09-14 07:07:24 · update #3
Oh, come on... there you go again using logic...
2006-09-14 06:43:23 · answer #1 · answered by XYZ 7 · 3⤊ 4⤋
Point 1) Jesus did exist throughout eternity with God; the Scriptures are very clear on this issue in many vereses; here is only one:
John 1:1 -- And the Word [Jesus] was with God, and the Word was God.
But you also ask, "how was Jesus begotten?" This is a good question.
Jesus was begotten in a few different ways. 1) He divested himself of his godhood, and was begotten in the flesh when he was conceived in Mary's womb; 2) Although Jesus had God's holy spirit even in the womb, he was symbolically begotten again, as an example to his followers, when he received the holy spirit at baptism; 3) and finally, he was BORN into the family of God when he rose from the dead.
This was all done as an example to us. We are all begotten by our human fathers, begotten again spiritually when we are converted and receive the holy spirit of God; and those who are spiritually begotten of God will be BORN into God's family at the resurrection upon the return of Jesus to this earth.
Point 2) When Jesus died, he was dead! Death does not mean one goes and lives elsewhere, death means to cease to live. God could not talk to Jesus while he was dead. And after an eternity of his companionship, even this long would be a sacrifice. Also, Jesus did not acquire MORE powers and authority than he had prior to his conception, he took again what he had (John 17:5); and possibly a little less, as he said that the Father was greater than he, whereas before, they were equal.
Point 3) The purpose of God's plan is not to sacrifice as much as he possibly can; the purpose is to lead people by example to his Kingdom and righteousness. God took on a suffering and sacrifice that he was not obliged to do. We, however, are deserving of punishment and death for our many sins. Jesus died that the law of God could be satisfied. If he didn't, then we would have had to die for our own sins, and we do not have eternal life so that we could just pop back up again; we would be dead forever. God is the giver of life, not death.
John 10:10 - "...I [Jesus] have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."
2006-09-14 19:24:53 · answer #2 · answered by BC 6 · 0⤊ 1⤋
1. Jesus did exist before the New Testament. Some say that the priest Melchizadek in the OT was a form of Jesus.
2. When you are part of God's perfection for all eternity and then have all the sin of every being that has lived or ever will live piled on you that is a huge sacrifice. And no, God cut Jesus off when that happened.
3. No just plain human would be good enough to sacrifice in that way.
Think of every thing you have ever done wrong (killing, stealing, cheating, tax evasion, lying, gossip, slander, speeding when the limit is clearly posted, anything) as a penny that needs to be paid.
Now add them all up, then multiply by every human being that has ever lived or ever will. That's a chunk of change!
Only God himself could pay for it, so instead of punishing us directly, He pays the bill himself by having the part of him that is Jesus die for it.
But now the bill is paid and since Jesus is part of God and immortal, he cannot stay dead. He is more powerful than death.
All one has to do is admit the need for someone else to pay the penalty for us and heaven awaits.
It's like someone offering to buy you lunch. You can refuse and pay your own way (hell) or you can accept and graciously say thanks.
2006-09-14 14:16:04 · answer #3 · answered by splitshell 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
1. Jesus is an eternal being, He did exist before He was born to Mary. The Bible teaches that from cover to cover.
2. What do you mean "just" come back three days later. Can you just come back three days after you die. he Bible says in Romans 1 that that just coming back from the death demonstrated that He is he Son of God. What He gave up was His life so that you can have eternal life. Sure God could contact Him during those three days, so what is the issue there?
3.Every man is not the son of God, they are all created by Him but only those who believe in Him becomes sons of God. (Lazarus was not he only one raised from the dead, there were a number more) No one else could die for others sins because they all had their own sins to die for. Jesus was the only perfect man who could make tha sacrifice.
2006-09-14 13:54:25 · answer #4 · answered by oldguy63 7 · 0⤊ 2⤋
1. Jesus had a relationship with God from the beginning, hence the triune God ( Father, Son, & Holy Spirit) 2. Jesus did not necessarily know he would be resurected. What he gave up was his life with God. As for contact with God while he was dead, the definition of Hell to most Christians is "the absence of God", therefore, when he was in Hell there was no contact. 3. Every man is only the son of God through Jesus.
2006-09-14 13:53:24 · answer #5 · answered by howcanitbe 1 · 0⤊ 2⤋
In response to your additional comments...
You are making comments about things within the Bible and it is pretty clear you haven't read (maybe recently) what exactly is within the covers. Rather than going in depths here - just open it up and begin reading for yourself. You are obviously very curious about this topic - so go for it. Most of your questions are based in misinformation (ex Jesus didn't exist before...) so I think it is easiest for you to go grab a Bible and start searching on your own. There are many Bible study helps (if you're like me) online in various places. Check out www.biblegateway.com) to search topics and keywords you're interested in. 2 cents
2006-09-14 14:25:08 · answer #6 · answered by j-Z 2 · 0⤊ 1⤋
answer to question 1: Every person is a 'son of God' -- we are made in the image of the Pattern (pathos/father), meaning we are living expressions of the Pattern. We all have the purpose to uncover and awaken to our own Christ Mind. Christ Mind is the conscious realization of being one with the Pattern. We are naturally in Christ Mind without human conditioning (the 'beast'). There's no such thing as supernatural, only sub-natural which is what humans are when they are conditioned to the system of the 'beast.'
answer to question 2 : Judging by your questions, you seem to be suffering from PTSD (post traumatic scripture disorder) The other end of the pole (which is your 'argument') seems to be fundamentalist Christians who read scriptures literally? (through the 'eyes' of conditioning !!!!(the 'beast'). You're totally missing the deeper hidden meaning by assuming that scriptures must be read through a veil of ignorance. The true, righteous message of the scriptures (and Christ) ALWAYS points to a radical over turning of the greed based social structure: a Revolution against the 'beast' (human conditioning) and the freedom of society at large. Christ is the revolutionary light of awareness in all of us that, when awakened, passionately cries out NO MORE TO INJUSTICE and INHUMANITY.
Your eyes are obviously still very tainted from Christianity. But Christ has nothing to do with religion or any other institution of the 'beast' (human conditioning system).
The Pattern and Christ gave up nothing because what is Real can never be lost. Christ was aware of being the Pattern so he WAS the Pattern in conscious life. And so are we all intended to Be. There is no pedestal in the Pattern; the pedestal is a product of the 'beast' and with it comes greed, jealousy, hatred, injustice, war, and overall chaos on the collective human mind.
answer to question 3 : By overcoming death in his realization of being the Pattern (which you also are, being a son of God), Jesus Christ fulfilled his function to plant a seed into the collective consciousness of humanity. So that we ALL could awaken to the Truth of who we ARE: living expressions of the Pattern that underlies all growth and development in the Kosmos. (CHRIST!) Created in the image of 'God' yet oblivious to what this actually means till we are voluntarily unhooked from false human conditioning (the beast). Once we're unhooked we are naturally aware of who we are - and suffering has no power over us anymore. :-)
thats my understanding
2006-09-14 14:22:27 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 1⤊ 0⤋
Jesus was a great soul or bodhissatva who chose to reincarnate in order that humanity would have a role model, a person who embodied the highest moral virtue. Don't see Jesus as a saviour who can atone for your sins see him as a guide and an example to follow. Be like Christ-don't worship him.
2006-09-14 13:48:40 · answer #8 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 1⤋
You might also ask, what does it mean to 'die for our sins'... our sins certainly killed him, society held tightly to a system that deprived the poor and sick of care, and Jesus kept on bucking the system, it made people very angry, and he died for it. He said, remember me, long before the disciples understood he would be killed, and yet we persist on his words meaning to remember his death and Resurrection vs. remembering his life and how he taught us to live with one another...
I guess that's not really answering your question, some Christians believe: #1: Jesus existed before he came to earth, just not in a human body. "The Word was with God and the Word was God" #2: His death was not about 'giving up' anything, but instead about claiming and proving something, that something is dominance over death and destruction, dominance over 'evil'... Jesus is risen (in our hearts or literally) and Jesus wins! #3, again, it is not really about sacrifice, it is about proof of Power (oops.. watch out for that power.. it can be misused!).
2006-09-14 13:50:17 · answer #9 · answered by Terri 5 · 0⤊ 1⤋
He had to do it this way! It's the only known way to alchemically create a super-energized version of a "sin-eater", someone who is paid to take clients' sins, put them into his food, and eat them so that he can neutralize them inside his body. <=D First step: Get a virgin pregnant with a god's child! Second step: Have him talk about how everybody should just try being nice to each other, so that he gets nailed to a tree and eats everybody's sins! Then bring him back from the dead.
Sins eat'd!
2006-09-14 13:47:26 · answer #10 · answered by fiveshiftone 4 · 0⤊ 1⤋
Read the Bible, Jesus was created in the beginning.
It's in the first part of the gospel of John. "Word" means "Jesus." There are other places that talks about Jesus being there the entire time.
Jesus was resurrected to show that he was/is more than a human. Death has no control over him like it does us.
2006-09-14 13:43:34 · answer #11 · answered by april_hwth 4 · 0⤊ 3⤋