Atheists and Agnostics(all may come actually) do you at times ponder the immateriality of material?

Question

As a resident of Austin I have some friends studying in our fine Physic's program here(Many cutting edge developments in "String Theory, etcetera have emerged in our local programs) ... Though some of the "materialist" dipositions here at ya seem incapable of "thinking outside the box" ... this one seems a snap for most of my physic's friends ..:Our five senses corollate one millionth of the electromagnetic spectrum that we are immersed in .. Therefore the majority of our immediate material universe is occurring in and through us entirely beyond the ken of our perceptions ...
Often people in the cutting edge of varied sciences I have found ... rather than rotely recycling stale nineteenth century aphorisms of Kant and Des Cartes- as philosophical foundations to renounce religions (ie- "Point to your truths") ... rather , realising that both our five senses and our scientific instruments are processing a perception of such a tiny minority of the universe immediately all around us .

Much like a radio with a needle marking the one signal we are processing while awash in "undetected" frequencies ... These modern scientists- astrophysicists, biologists, quantum physicists, chemists .. even in actual applied particle collisions (where they broach quantum conditions theorised to be within exponentiated nanoseconds of the bang)... are often approaching these mysteries with a sense of sanctity (albeit often not the orthodox variety) ... Yet I see at ya, rather a brash armchair philosopher approach championing materialism over convictions certain people have regarding their varied faiths ..
The "true" scientists of today, I have found are not so dismissive of assumptions of faith .. Within every new pondered constituent appears a new vista and mystery .. Leaving me to ponder (with all we obviously do not perceive) if some vocal materialists here .. ever stop to ponder the immateriality of their materialism?

Yoda.. your categories are too rigid for my tastes .. but thanks for your thoughts ..

" Duck Phup"... my "immediate" means I'm not setting my yardstick to the distant quasars .. my guess is you get my gist .. but myself and Carl Sagan will stand corrected accordingly ...

"so what- consider the audience" :D..

Thankyou Aurora Dawn .. I love that!

nh barton- your distinction of certainty verse possibility is good here.. yet consider- what is scientific materialism when it no longer concedes "possibilty" .. simply dead dogma,eh?

Tu Nga- you simply rock man!!!

printninja- you are correct I think in what would be welladvised .. lol .. but just look at "the quality" I get ... including your esteemed addition!..lol .. I will take quality over quantity any day ..:D

d_chino_m..meant to TY for your early contribution .. Indigo..lol- you and I have more in common than this my current entry may suggest ..:D

Tu Nga,Aurora Dawn and printninja are my favs so far .. and Duck Phup's fine contributions aren't lost on me- much that was fine to chew on there too ..

ya ya ya ichimon - getting smaller to muons, and gluons .. the leptons supposedly display certain properties that they can "gust" different directions in "time"...Om sat tat chit ananda! .. Sounds like alot of chit to me .. lol

Miracle whip.. like old Robert Frost(or worse Blake) marrying off fire and ice again..nice!

Answer 1

Very intelligent question (don't give me ten points, otherwise the following words will loose their values)!
Nowadays, big brains are thinking much about the mysteries of dark matter, dark energy, and perhaps more materials we may have to call them by adding the epithet 'dark' (that science has not shed any light on them yet).
All human beings are rational beings, i.e. they are very, very intelligent, they should not shut their eyes before the spiritual mysteries and realities.
Humility is a sign of wisdom, and not of ignorance.

Answer 2

You would be well advised to reduce the verbosity of your questions if you want to get a decent number of answers.

This question falls into the category of, "why bother to test things since our expectation of a particular result reduces the validity of the test?" In other words, truths are only discovered accidental, which we all know isn't true. Ever hear the expression, "it's not the destination, but the journey that matters."? The acquisition of knowledge, as primitive, or limited, or pointless as it may be, is unfortunately WHAT WE HUMANS DO. We are explorers, and even if we can only explore a single stream in a vast universe of rivers and tributaries, this is what we do.

Think about this... a difference which makes no difference, is no difference. Why ponder something which, were you to know the answer, wouldn't make a bit of difference anyway? All the effort and energy expended on finding answers to questions that will do ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to improve the human condition is, in my opinion, a crime against humanity. There is no virtue in learning how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, and there never will be.

Science (and even religion) should focus on the matters of today, the here and the now. That is where our true effectiveness lies.

Answer 3

Yours, really are my favourite questions Gmon....

I am constantly thinking about it...I am thinking about how neutrinos pass directly through everything, straight through, everything, even me (and I am supercool, and I would like to think above all that).

Whether such a tiny thing could be a trigger mechanism at a sub atomic level for some atomic movement...an eddy in what is ultimately a vast space to an atom.

From there I posit whether such an eddy, could be a catalyst for a reaction, I wonder whether something so difficult to contemplate may actually explain some of the craziness we can't...could something so random be the spark of evolution? Where does cancer come from? Could these smallest of elements have created a tiny ripple or effect on atoms as they pass through us, controlling our moods, minds and psyche's?

That is all playful folly, Neutrinos ar a bad example of the fact we understand something is happening to everything on earth, but we can not comprehend the complexity of it all.

We have no chance of getting to grips with the Ampitheatre of Senses we are missing, more importantly, we have no requirement; nature teaches us this.

Our brains are not built to house that absolute mass of data and input. Who is to say that the senses don't deliberately cut out the rest of the stuff necessarily to prevent the brain from frying? As we and our brains evolve, it is logical to presume that if additional elements of the universe are required for us to preceive, over the generations we shall do so.

Chaos states that the smallest thing can have the largest effect ( paraphrased hopelessly - sorry). So if this is the case, how can anything be truly immaterial?!

Kant & Descartes were p*ssies

Answer 4

You only describe a possibility, all the while the religious describe a certainty. Do you notice the broad expressions of "truth" abounding in the world? Do any of them hold any real claim? None that any science can point to.

Your conjecture has some soundness (although it sounds a lot like the "God of the margins" argument), but it says nothing about the experienced social phenomenon of religion or the extremely specific claims made by those who affix the meaning of their lives to their specific flavor of choice. To notice the possibility of the supernatural is easy. The problem is making that claim relevant to life.

Answer 5

I'm a Deist, but I still have a brain. I've pondered all the above and more. How old were you when you pondered that you were inside your head looking out?

All for You
by AuroraDawn

Your universe is inside of you
So much joy and amazement abounds
A solitary world where you rule supreme
And no one may ever enter this domain
Only you can feel a kiss on your lips
Or a breeze's caress on your skin
The multi-colored windows of your soul
Are your exclusive panorama
Revel in your heartbeat's rhythm
Drink in air like fine wine
Give your eager fingertips
A feast of sensuous perceptions
Feel the wonder of the world around you
Experience the awe of living
This is your magic carpet ride
Savor the exquisite flavor
Of this sacrosanct gift of life

Answer 6

In response to your "all may come," I come. And Austin! Have you ever been to Jovita's in South Austin? I used to go all the time when I lived there.

I've come at your question from the opposite side of the E=mc^2 equation. I've wondered about the hyper-spirituality of energy, many times before. God is described as "a consuming fire." I'm not the first to wonder if all people, indeed all matter, will get absorbed into this Consuming Fire after death and judgment. For some, whose delight in life has been to be absorbed by passion for that Infinite Energy who has expressed Himself as matter, as man, as Jesus Christ, the experience will be Heaven. For others, the exact same experience will be Hell....Maybe.

Answer 7

True scientists do not follow assumptions of faith.

That there is far more out there then we are readily aware of is certain. That there could be a god is also possible. That an invisible magical being created the universe is far less probable then a natural explanation.

True scientists may acknowledge the possibility of god, but do not entertain it as a solution for any observable phenomenon.

Answer 8

Sorry, I was an art major...could you repeat the question...in plain english, preferably with visuals to accompany it so a visual artistic type might get what you are saying... lol

Answer 9

All the time. Your characterization was off by several orders of magnitude. Our senses can perceive only a tiny fraction of a billionth of a billionth of the stimuli that is provided by the universe. Most of what we DO perceive (see, feel, hear, smell, touch) gets filtered out by the subconscious, beneath our level of awareness. The little bit that DOES make it past the subconscious gets processed through the internal filters that make up our 'self-description':

* Misconceptions
* Prejudices
* Beliefs
* Experiential reference
* Knowledge base

There are 2 forms of reality:

Objective (fundamental) (absolute) reality... what IS

Subjective (personal) reality... what we THINK is, or PERCEIVE to be.

It is from THAT process that 'subjective reality' emerges... our own personal view of the world... an interpretation of the universe, shaped by our self-description.

There is only ONE 'objective reality'. There are as many 'subjective realities' as there are sentient minds.

The ways in which we perceive the world owe much more to what goes on in our brains that to what actually goes on in the universe. Take vision. Think of a pencil, for example. We perceive it as a solid, opaque object. But, it is opaque ONLY with respect to a narrow part of the electromagnetic spectrum, to which 'light' belongs. The pencil is made up of molecules, which are made up of atoms. If you consider a hydrogen atom (the simplest), and imagine it blown up to the size of our Solar System, the 'nucleus' (sun) would be about the size of a grapefruit, and its single electron would be about the size of a pea, somewhere out around the orbit of Pluto.

Now think about a Uranium atom... one of the heavier ones. In that case, the nucleus would be about the size of a Volkswagen 'Beetle' (the sun)... and the atoms would be like a bunch of peas, starting out around the orbit of Pluto, and extending far, far beyond.

(For those readers who know that I have just described a model of the atom that was known to be obsolete around 100 years ago... so what? Consider the audience. We know that it would be more like a 'ghost-pea', smeared out around the entire solar system, and it would not actually 'become' a pea until you looked for it.)

So, the pencil (and anything else we perceive as a 'solid' object) consists mostly of space. In fact, for all practical purposes, there is just as much actual space in the pencil as there is in an equal pencil-sized volume in the depths of outer space. Yet we can pick it up, write with it, chew on it.

So, now... pick up a pencil, look at it, then close your eyes. When your eyes are closed, do you still imagine the pencil is as you perceived it to be when you were 'looking' at it? Yes? No? Well, it isn't. NOTHING is the same as what you 'perceive' it to be, when you are looking at it. Pencils have the POTENTIAL to be perceived as an opaque object when somebody is looking at it. By the act of 'looking', you are transforming POTENTIALITY into ACTUALITY... but ONLY in your own mind... in your own subjective reality. The rest of the universe does not care that you are temporarily deluding yourself.

Now think about abstract information. Ideas. Interactions with other people. Understanding what you are sensing, hearing, being told. Remember those filters:

* Misconceptions
* Prejudices
* Beliefs
* Experiential reference
* Knowledge base
        |
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Subjective reality

Your world view... your 'subjective reality'... is the OUTPUT of those filters. But, just to complicate things... those filters are interactive. Each of them is affected (infected?) and influenced by the others. I guess the simplest way to consider that is to imagine another arrow emerging from 'knowledge base' and going back up to the top of the list, as an INPUT for 'misconceptions'.

This isn't entirely hopeless, though. Since we are pretty much wired the same, and share in a common culture and heritage, the gross outlines of our 'subjective realities' have a high degree of congruity. For example, if I point at a tree and say "That's a tree," you aren't likely to disagree with me.

The ONLY WAY for a person to EVOLVE, spiritually and personally, is to clean up those filters. There are only TWO of those filters that are worth a hill of beans... 'knowledge base' and 'experiential reference'. Unfortunately, those two are shaped... and contaminated... by the outputs of the other three. So, it is ESSENTIAL for anyone who desires to evolve spiritually and personally is to consistently and constantly work at minimizing and eventually ELIMINATING those first three filters. The most detrimental and insidious of those three filters is 'beliefs'... because therein lies DELUSION... the conviction that one knows the 'truth' about some aspect of existence and reality, when (in fact) ya don't know squat. People's world view... subjective reality... is distorted because the conscious mind seems to be unable to distinguish between 'knowledge' (facts) and 'beliefs' (delusions). The only sensible course, then, is to ELIMINATE 'beliefs' right along with prejudices and misconceptions. 'Knowledge' can take the form of 'I don't know'. However, 'belief' can create a form of FALSE 'knowledge', substituting gods, demons, angels, in place of 'I don't know'.

But that course isn't for everybody. It requires rationality, critical thought, intellectual honesty, and desire. Most people are content to shape their world view by regarding the world as being consistent with their own subjective reality... ALL of which is an illusion constructed by the mind, and MUCH of it consisting of the delusional interpretations created from their 'beliefs'.

Answer 10

Nope.
Reality is what it is. You're discussing philosophy.