Perpetual motion part 3?

Question

Perpetual question more like....

right ..

I am wondering still, and still playing,

In my thought experiment yesterday, I mentioned an implausible type of machine, I would like to point out a few things about the idea, that I think may have been missed, and then have peoples thoughts on those, its a game really.

So my machine involved having a 1000 meter shaft , down which a House sized giant metal ball is dropped, this ball drops the thousand feet, and then goes onto a Mill type system that then turn tilts the top ball in the mill, (which is at the top of the 1000m shaft) and so the the next ball drops, and again descends down the shaft...

In my thought experiment, it is not the mill which we would derive the power from, the mill is a very well balanced mill, which just accepts a ball, the change in the weight, makes the mill turn and the next ball drop, this is all the mill does...
So there is no power to be lost there..
contdd

The mass of the ball falling down the shaft is in a sense free energy , as the mass of the ball and gravity take care of that...
SO If there is no energy loss in tiltilng the next ball around, the mill, (as we are not harnessing this energy), and then we get free energy from the falling ball,,, IF there was a way harnessing the energy from the ball, EVEN though it may be inefficent, it would not matter, as the energy is "free" ?

So therefore if there could be a way of harnessing some of the energy. once the machine was put into action, as long as we harnessed some of the energy of the dropping ball somehow, then it would still hit the bottom, roll down a ramp, and into the waiting, mill, which topples the next one in line at the top..
SO The question is, HOw could you harness the energy from this crazy machine.. PLEASE UNDERSTAND I AM NOT REALLY SERIOUS < MERELY PLAYING WITH IDEAS< KIND OF RELATED TO THIS>>>

WHAT about if the shaft that the ball dropped down, was lined on the outside with turbines, of some sort, that have magnets on them, and as the balls drop down one afer the other (quite quickly, there could even be more than one dropping at once if the mill turned quick enough) And these turbines, had aa mechanism lined with magnets, and the ball was also magnetic(the opposite pole0 so as the ball passed, thousands of magnetic turbine blades where pushed around by the opposite magnetic force, over and over again, the ball spinning them over and over again, (for free) , if the magnets are geared to a turbne, that no matter how inneficent, was being powered by gravity, then would this produce "free energy" A gravity magnet engine, there could even be one hundred shafts in operatin right next to each other, Industrial in the extreme...

I know the balls would need replacing, and I know that the thing would be stupid to build, but its the fun of the concept..

The energy to get the ball back up to the top comes from dropping the ball into the basket at the bottom of the shaft, onto a very sensitive mill, which then turns the mill full of balls, around so the next on in line drops down the shaft, as nothing is taking the energy away from the mill , why would the balls need energy to get back up to the top?there are hundreds of balls all the way around the mill, and as the mill is so sensitive, all it takes is for one mre ball to drop onto it, and it turns.. the energy comes from the descent of the ball,!! once it hits the bottom of the ramp all it has to do is roll down the incline and into its waiting basket,

Would friction and othr forces, overcome gravity...

Also If the machine could only harness a small amount of power, If the machine was built bigger, would the power outage be more, the bigger the machine, so if it could be built big enough, could you then be happy with the energy output it would produce, say if the machine was a hundred times bigger, so it had a 100000 meter shaft, whould this produce more energy.. if so , and gravity was then providing this free energy, of which you harnessed a little, bascially then would this really be a way of producing "free energy?"

if not , where would the energy be lost?

Answer 1

Mark "losses" in the system are occurences when energy is removed from the system and cannot be recovered. Friction for instance, whether ists contact of the ball with the sides of the tube (even for a brief moment) or any air inside the tube, slowly robs the system of energy. Many so-called perpetual systems can function for extended periods, but ALL will eventually suffer from enough losses that they will stop.

Your mill rotates and suffers from friction. Even well lubricated, the bearing grease actually has a viscosity and a friction to it! The impact of the ball onto the mill will result in vibrations, which is a form of energy transfer to the structure.

Now, supposing that you manage to find the perfect frictionless bearings, and everything is working perfectly and you've achieved true perpetual motion with this machine.....

So what? It still cannot do useful work and is nothing more than a novelty. The minute you 'harness' the energy in this machine, you would be robbing the system of energy. Eventually it would stop then. Not to be a wiseguy, but really, so what have you really accomplished if everything did work with no losses whatsoever?

Answer 2

Nice try!

Too bad you still can't break the laws of thermodynamics - they are (paraphrased) you can't win, you can't break even, and you can't get out of the game!

Your metal balls will still need some energy source to get back to the top of your machine, and gravity will be acting on them whether they are rising or falling.

Answer 3

maybe too much friction would eventually run it down I think. Maybe floating magnetic balls might be better.