I have a question toward the Trinity Doctrine?

Question

According to some scriptures like 1 John 5:7 and John 1:1 and others, are used by many to prove that Jesus is God or the same but in the original greek manuscripts says something completely different. For example 1 John 5:7 in the King James version says: "And there are three in heaven that bear record the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost and all three are one." But the interesting part about this scripture is that it does not exist in the original manuscripts or even in the oldest bibles before the King James version. Sounds like an add on. John 1:1 is another scripture that is tranlated wrong, I have many greek Bibles and all of them and I do use greek translating software, gives a whole different translation, it goes something like this "In the beginning the Logos was, the Logos was with the God, and the Logos is divine." Does not translate it as a God but it shows, as I understand it Jesus is of divine origin, mighty one, not God himself. So why the confusion?

Answer 1

I'm not confused because I believe the same way as you.

Most don't know the definition of the trinity thinking; and that's why I believe they're confused. They are only taught by others to believe it's true without searching scriptures to see if it is so!

TRINITY is defined as "A three-fold personality existing in one divine being or substance; the union in one God the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three infinite co-equal, co-eternal persons as; one God in three persons."

I don't believe in the trinity! I don't see how people can when it came from paganism and is unbiblical.

Jesus Christ is not God (he was figuratively God in the Old Testament; the spokesperson for God) = John 1:1.
http://www.lcg.org/cgi-bin/tw/magazine/tw-mag.cgi?category=Magazine3&item=1103832467
http://community.webshots.com/photo/150456629/1472651266051497771QlfGdY

Now if Jesus was a trinity (which is unbiblical), that would mean he didn't come fully in the flesh = 1John 4:3.
How can Jesus be God and talk to himself?

The Trinity Doctrine came from paganism.
http://www.cornerstone1.org/trinity1.htm
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=140
http://mikeblume.com/pagantr.htm

Most of the majority(Matt.7:13) leads people away from the Truth.

(KJV BIBLE)There are 3 that protestants claim about the trinity; they're JOHN 14 & 15 and 1JOHN 5:7. To start out 1JOHN 5:7 was never in any of the inspired Greek manuscripts; so this knocks out one. As for John 14 & 15; the Greek word for "helper" is paracletos; one who helps inwhich points to the Holy spirit. In Greek, the word "He" is neuter such as "hand" is feminine whether it is a woman's hand or male's hand. As for the word "paracletos" it is masculine and always require a masculine pronoun. This however doesn't prove personhood as you've noticed.
But as you've noticed, these texts don't prove Jesus is God or the Holy Spirit.
I don't believe in the TRINITY! The Bible texts that I'm going to mention contradict the Trinity teaching.
MATT.12:32 "AND WHOSOEVER SPEAKETH A WORD AGAINST THE SON OF MAN, IT SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM: BUT WHOSOEVER SPEAKETH AGAINST THE HOLY GHOST, IT SHALL NOT BE FORGIVEN HIM, NEITHER IN THIS WORLD, NEITHER IN THE WORLD TO COME."
JOHN 14:28 "IF YE LOVED ME, YE WOULD REJOICE, BECAUSE I SAID , I GO UNTO THE FATHER: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."
1COR.11:3 "BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; & THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD."
LUKE 18:19 "AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? NONE IS GOOD, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD."
****SEVERAL OTHER TEXTS SAY THERE'S ONLY TWO PERSONS:
1COR.1:3; 8:6; 1TIM.1:2; 2:5; GAL.1:3; PHILIPP.1:2; ROM.1:7; 2COR.1:2-3; 1THESS.1:1; 2THESS.1:2; 2TIM.1:2; PHILEMON 1:3; 1PETER 1:3; 2PETER 1:2; 1JOHN 1:3; 2JOHN 1:3.

Now touching on the HOLY SPIRIT; the Holy Spirit is a power(Luke 1:35= "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the "Son of God.") where God and Jesus make their presence known in the hearts and minds of believers(1John 3:24 = "And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."). The believers of god and Jesus will have this love poured on them (Rom.5:5 = "And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given to us.") It will teach them understanding and wisdom of God's Word (John 14:16,17,20,23,26 = "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. At that day ye shall know that I am in the Father, and ye in me, and I in you. Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.") Jesus had the Holy Spirit in him when he made the lame walk and the deaf to hear and etc.(Luke 5:15-17) God works in our minds to give us stength to overcome (Genesis 6:3 = "And the Lord said, my Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.") Other texts are: John 7:38-39; Rom.8:11,13-14,16 and Psalm 104:30.

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Another text that Trinitarians use to say Jesus is the same being as God is John 10:30.
Well many confuse this text in John 10:30 to say Jesus and God are one and the same person; but this text doesn't mean that. In fact what does Jesus/Bible tell us in these texts; doesn't it say that Jesus and God are seperate people?

JOHN 14:28 = "YE HAVE HEARD HOW I SAID UNTO YOU, I GO AWAY, AND COME AGAIN UNTO YOU. IF YE LOVED ME, YE WOULD REJOICE, BECAUSE I SAID, I GO UNTO THE FATHER: FOR MY FATHER IS GREATER THAN I."

JOHN 20:17 = "JESUS SAID UNTO HER, TOUCH ME NOT; FOR I AM NOT ASCENDED TO MY FATHER: BUT GO TO MY BRETHREN, AND SAY TO THEM, I ASCEND UNTO MY FATHER, AND YOUR FATHER; AND TO MY GOD AND YOUR GOD."

1COR.11:3 "BUT I WOULD HAVE YOU KNOW THAT THE HEAD OF EVERY MAN IS CHRIST; & THE HEAD OF THE WOMAN IS THE MAN; AND THE HEAD OF CHRIST IS GOD."

LUKE 18:19 "AND JESUS SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? NONE IS GOOD, SAVE ONE, THAT IS, GOD."

MATT.19:17 = "AND HE SAID UNTO HIM, WHY CALLEST THOU ME GOOD? THERE IS NONE GOOD BUT ONE, THAT IS, GOD: BUT IF THOU WILT ENTER INTO LIFE, KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS."

****SEVERAL OTHER TEXTS SAY THERE'S ONLY TWO PERSONS:
1COR.1:3; 8:6; 1TIM.1:2; 2:5; GAL.1:3; PHILIPP.1:2; ROM.1:7; 2COR.1:2-3; 1THESS.1:1; 2THESS.1:2; 2TIM.1:2; PHILEMON 1:3; 1PETER 1:3; 2PETER 1:2; 1JOHN 1:3; 2JOHN 1:3.

So what does John 10:30 really means--when it says "I and my Father are one?" Well let's go further down to John 10:38. Doesn't it tell us that God and Jesus are alike and similar in actions, features, and etc? Take a Father with his son or a Mother with her daughter; do they have characteristics like you; but does that mean they're you? No of course not; they're seperate, but are alike in different ways.

JOHN 10:38 = "BUT IF I DO, THOUGH YE BELIEVE NOT ME, BELIEVE THE WORKS: THAT YE MAY KNOW, AND BELIEVE, THAT THE FATHER IS IN ME, AND I IN HIM."

JOHN 5:19-20 = "THEN, ANSWERED JESUS AND SAID UNTO THEM, VERILY, VERILY, I SAY UNTO YOU, THE SON CAN DO NOTHING OF HIMSELF, BUT WHAT HE SEETH THE FATHER DO: FOR WHAT THINGS SOEVER HE DOETH, THESE ALSO DOETH THE SON LIKEWISE. FOR THE FATHER LOVETH THE SON, AND SHEWETH HIM ALL THINGS THAT HIMSELF DOETH: AND HE WILL SHEW HIM GREATER WORKS THAN THESE, THAT YE MAY MARVEL."

JOHN 17:21-22 = "THAT THEY ALL MAY BE ONE; AS THOU, FATHER, ART IN ME, AND I IN THEE, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE THAT THOU HAS SENT ME. AND THE GLORY WHICH THOU GAVEST ME I HAVE GIVEN THEM; THAT THEY MAY BE ONE, EVEN AS WE ARE ONE."

JOHN 14:10-11 = "BELIEVEST THOU NOT THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME? THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU I SPEAK OF NOT MYSELF: BUT THE FATHER THAT DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH THE WORKS. BELIEVE ME THAT I AM IN THE FATHER, AND THE FATHER IN ME: OR ELSE BELIEVE ME FOR THE VERY WORKS' SAKE."

JOHN 5:36 = "BUT I HAVE A GREATER WITNESS THAN THAT OF JOHN: FOR THE WORKS WHICH THE FATHER HATH GIVEN ME TO FINISH, THE SAME WORKS THAT I DO, BEAR WITNESS OF ME, THAT THE FATHER HATH SENT ME."

JOHN 10:25 = "JESUS ANSWERED THEM, I TOLD YOU, AND YOU BELIEVED NOT: THE WORKS THAT I DO IN MY FATHER'S NAME, THEY BEAR WITNESS OF ME."

Also many others such as:
JOHN 8:28,42,49-50,54; 5:19-20,26-27,30; 6:38,57
MATT.20:23

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Also why I don't believe in the TRINITY is because it says in the KJV that the false church will cast all the truth to the ground (Daniel 8:12). I happen to know this false church because all the world has followed it (Rev.12:9; 13:3,12) except for one church (Acts 20:28).

Answer 2

ok, right here's a catalogue I have been given from the MacArthur learn Bible. TRINITY SCRIPTURES The Doctrine of the Trinity: proved from Scripture Matthew 3: sixteen, 17 Matthew 28:19 Romans 8: 9 a million Corinthians 12: 3-6 2 Corinthians 13: 14 Ephesians 4: 4-6 a million Peter a million: 2 Jude a million: 20, 21 Revelation a million: 4,5 Divine titles utilized to the three persons contained in the Trinity Exodus 20: 2 John 20: 28 Acts: 5: 3,4 each and each individual in defined as: eternal Romans sixteen: 26 Revelation 22: 13 Hebrews 9: 14 Holy Revelation 4: 8 Revelation 15: 4 Acts 3: 14 a million John 2: 20 Omnipresent Jeremiah 23: 24 Ephesians a million: 23 Psalms 139: 7 Omniscient Acts 15: 18 John 21: 17 a million Corinthians 2: 10,11 author Genesis a million: a million Colossians a million: sixteen job 26: 13 Sanctifier Jude a million: a million Hebrews 2: 11 a million Peter a million: 2 author of all religious operations Hebrews 13: 21 Colossians a million: 29 a million Corinthians 12: 11 source of eternal existence Romans 6: 23 John 10: 28 Galatians 6: 8 instructor Issaiah fifty 4: 13 Luke 21: 15 John 14: 26 Issaiah 40 8: 17 Galatians a million: 12 a million John 2: 20 elevating Christ from the ineffective a million Corinthians 6: 14 John 2: 19 a million Peter 3: 18 Inspiring the prophets, and so on. Hebrews a million: a million 2 Corinthians 13: 3 Mark 13: 11 offering ministers to the Church Jeremiah 3: 15 Ephesians 4: 11 Acts 20: 28 Jeremiah 26: 5 Matthew 10: 5 Acts 13: 2 Salvation the artwork of two Thessalonians 2: 13, 14 Titus 3: 4-6 a million Peter a million: 2

Answer 3

1 John 5:7 is a scribal note that was mistaken by later copyists to be part of the text. We have known for some time it is not orginal and newer translations made from older manuscripts do not contain this. No serious scholar contends it is original. As for John 1:1, if you try different translation software you'll get a different result. "And the logos is divine" is not a correct rendering. I haven't found any translation software that handles Koine or any other language well enough that you can avoid the necessity of formal instruction.

You can find numerous resources on the web that take you through all the scirpture that refer to Jesus, god the Father and the Holy Spirit as "God" not simply "divine." Though the terms trinity does not occur inthe NT anywhere, that all three are called God is indisputable. I still think the Trinity argument is bizarre, but it's Biblically based for sure.

Answer 4

You are correct..but where did you get the manuscripts that existed before the KJV?
Also, the NKJV I have does translate like it should..it does not say something else...so you have me a little confused...

so let's start over.....

in the NT texts, Logos is the Word, and Jesus is the Word....both my KJV and my NKJV uses "the Word" instead of " the Son" in 1 John 5:7..... so anywhere you see "the Word" it is meant to indicate "the Son," because the Son was the Word made flesh...

In both my KJV and my NKJV, John 1:1, the verse ends with the word God, not divine... although divine would be more accurate...so I agree there...

I myself pondered the same question. This is my view:

First of all, Jesus is the Son of God, not God Himself....it is repeated about 20 times in just the book of John. The Father is God.....

Here is an example. There is a king who has a son. Only the king is king, but the son is the prince . Since the prince is the son of his father he shares his royalty. In the same way, only God the Father is King or the God identified in the Old Testament. He sent his son Jesus , the prince to help mankind. Jesus rightly claimed to be divine because he was the son of the Father God. There is still only one Father God, but since Jesus shares the same substance of divinity, he also is the son of God. In the same way, The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father representing the spirit of the father to mankind. He also shares this divine quality since he is the spirit of the Father.

Answer 5

The New Testament is filled with difficulties like you mention. It woud be nice if we did have a first century copy of the Greek NT, but we do not. In addition, due to the great difference between the scribes in The Jewish OT and the Christian NT, additions and embellishments were not seen as dishonest. Barring 1John 5:7, as you do not accept it as original, let's use John 1:1, which may not be either.
The original Greek, if one accepts that this is original and unaltered, is as follows:
En arche en ho logos, kai ho logos en pros ton Theon, kai Theos en ho logos.
In the beginning was the logos, and the logos was with God, and the logos was God.
It does NOT say, as you suggest, that "the logos was divine." Because Greek uses cases, the meaning is reasonably specific, at least as specific as identities can be understood. Greek and Latin translating software have participated in some of the most abominably incorrect answers here.

The critical difficulty is in translating the word "logos." One could easily spend considerable time, at least several hours, talking about its meaning and implications. It is usually translated as "word" and refers to Jesus Christ. Logos refers to something which both completely is , in one sense, and yet continuously unfolds itself. As a parallel, think of a river: the river is what is in front of you, yet the water in the river is always changing. In that sense the river is always changing and yet the river is always the same. Hence, logos, however we translate the word, refers to a Christ who is both complete and ever becoming.

Answer 6

THe original copies of the Old Testament were written by Moses (ca. 1450 BC) on leather or papyrus. They were preserved until the time of Malachi (400 BC). Chances are these revered documents were buried by the Jews when they became too old for use. The Dead Sea scrolls discovered in 1947 were of Hebrew text from the 2nd to 1st century BC. The scrolls predate the added accents and vowel points inserted by the Masoretes between 600 AD and 950 AD.

The accuracy of the text is corroborated with other texts and writings, such as the Septuagint translation (mid-3rd century BC), the Aramaic Targumus, early Christian writers, and the Latin translation of Jerome (400 AD).

As for the New Testament, 75 papyri fragments date from 135 AD to the 8th century, covering 25 of the 27 Books and 40% of the text. Hundreds of parchment copies exist, including the great Condex Sinaiticus (4th century), the Codex Vaticanus (4th Century), and the Codex Alexandrinus (5th Century). Many additional lectionaries, and quotations exist in old Latin, Syriac, and Egyptian translations from the 3rd century.

Great efforts have been taken to correctly translate these documents into our Bible today. The Bible I use is the Ryrie Study Bible, from which much of this information is taken. This is a translation directly from the these sources. When translation becomes difficult, ambiguous, or the meaning is disputed, the footnotes make mention of these. Nowhere, however, is the Trinity of God, i.e. God the Father, Jesus Christ His only Son, and the Holy Spirit, ever questioned.

Hence, the earliest documents, translated with great care, have never put the Trinity in question as you suggest. I recommend that you re-evaluate your sources, and ensure you are translating them correctly.

Answer 7

Okay this is simple:

God is the creator of everything - according to the bible he even created Jesus

Jesus is God's first creation according to the bible once again - that is why he is called the son of God. Just as we being God's creation are called sons & daughters.

The Holy Spirit is Gods active force - Gods power

This is very simple.

Think?

If Jesus was God himself (Jehovah) then why would he pray to himself on earth? or why would he say "the father is greater then the son"?

Okay explians it very easily.

Now people will argue John 1:1 and blah blah pick on points here and there but Jesus was a "god" in the sense that through him all others things were created - he was God's helper from the very beginging when he was creating heaven, earth, and life...its all in the bible.
Its really not that complicated as some religions try to put it.

God reveals things to humble people not people who try to make the bible more complicated then it is. Plus this point in not complicated period.

Answer 8

The word "trinity" is not in the Bible, but the concept of the triune (three-in-one) God, is. The term "Godhead," referring to the three-in-one, can be found in Acts 17:29 and Colossians 2:9.

The explanation of the Trinity is so simple that most people miss it.

* If God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit were the same, they would not have different names.
* If they were the same, they would not appear separately as they do in Matthew 3:16,17.
* In spite of being different, they are “one.” (John 10:30)

The three “members” of the Trinity (Father, Son and Spirit) are different, but have the same purpose, and they are all God.

Answer 9

The KJV has many addons and rewrites. It is a dumbed down version of the Bible. A lot was to make it sound nicer and easier to read but some passages clearly change the meaning. I have the KJV and a couple of others. My oldest is translated from Latin, not Greek so yours is probably more authentic. I have seen similar things in comparing the KJV to the DR (Latin translation) Bible. The Bibles translated directly from the classical languages are actually very consistent with one another, though difficult to understand. The KJV started some radical changes but its very popular because you don't have to be a linguist and Bible scholar to understand it.

Answer 10

The Bible was originally written in Hebrew. And it kind of spread out to other continents from there. The Greek version comes from a different translation. Muslims tell us that the English version of the Quran is imperfect. Because it was originally written in ancient Arabic, considered by Muslims to be the perfect language.

In the New Testament, Jesus said,"My father and I are one."

Answer 11

The relationship between God & Jesus is clearly defined in JOHN 10:1-38.