Predestination Question?

Question

Please explain to me the idea of predestination. I was told that God has a "plan" for everyone, that we all follow and that he knows exactly what we'll do in our lives. Now, I take it that the person who told me was saying that our lives are set, and that we cannot change it. The decisions we make, the lifestyles we live, etc etc. Apparantly, God planned all of this out for us, each and every one. Personally, I don't like this concept because it nullifies our free will. But my question is, and if this predestination concept holds true, Why would God create people who don't believe in him? Why would he make us sin? Why take away our free will? I just don't like the idea that I am just some kind of "plan," and that I'm not using my own f***ing brain, God is. Besides, don't you think I should be the one making my own decisions in life? Explain this to me, because I'd really like to know if that's really how it works.

Answer 1

It is very easy to explain, in just three words... its all horseshit. A more detailed explanation follows.

'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.

If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.

For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.

If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.

Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.

So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.

Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.

So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.

The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.

So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:

1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.

2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.

3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."

Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.

It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.

They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.

However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.

Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.

Answer 2

This is tricky. You do have free will. You can make any choice about anything you want to. The thing is...God knows in advance what you are going to choose.

When the bible says God has a plan for us, yes. But people can turn away from God's plan and follow their own course, usually to destruction, if they totally reject God. The wisest person will turn their life over to God completely, because there is no "plan" of ours that could ever compete with God's perfect will for you. As Jesus said, He came to give us life, and that abundantly.

Answer 3

That's called Calvinism and basically laughs in the face of Bible text. Where its obvious in scripture there are some things that are predestined, and God does have a plan... but whether or not we follow it is our choice and will reap the consequences by our own doing. NOT because God predestined anyone to fail but because we choose the wrong paths.

Answer 4

fred
You believe in predestination, foreordination? And being a little Calvinistic myself, I believe in foreordination, and predestination, and so forth. You're in the Church you've got the predestination. Now, you have to believe in predestination and foreordination. Predestination looks back to foreknowledge and foreknowledge looks to destination. Predestinated, it's not a very good word for an evangelist or a minister to use, because it kinda confuses people when you say "predestinate." And "predestination" is a hard word among a congregation of people. Now, the word "predestinate," as is used in Ephesians 1:5, predestinate there, isn't a good word. It means in speaking of predestination to the people sometimes leads them to think that God just predestinated you to push you through a little pipe, or something. As well stated, predestination looks back to foreknowledge, and foreknowledge looks on to destiny. You're saved by the grace of God, by the foreknowledge of God, by His predestination. God called Abraham by predestination, by foreknowledge. I always use the word foreknowledge, because predestination is only the foreknowledge of God. Predestination, He knew what was in you. That's the reason I certainly believe in predestination, God's foreknowledge of things. God by predestination calls who He will. As I firmly believe in the foreknowledge of God, the predestination, not that God is willing that any would perish, but all might come to repentance; but being God, He had to know, and does know the end from the beginning. We all, if we believe the Bible, we have to believe in predestination. Now, do you see predestination? The whole thing rests solemnly upon predestination. I want you to notice It's so perfect, and it'll prove predestination to you. By predestination, by foreknowledge He saw every member, put every name on the Lamb's Book of Life before the church ever began. II Corinthians the 4th chapter: But if our gospel be hid, it's hid to them that are lost: (If that don't bring in predestination, I don't know what does.) Now, then, you see here comes into perfect view, predestination. God does His Own choosing by predestination, chose the prophets for every age. But how many believe in predestination unto election and reprobation unto destruction?

Answer 5

In theological discussions like this is it important to recognize the fallacy of the excluded middle. In this context, the statement "I have no free will" does not logically follow from the statement "God knows everything that will happen."

Since God created the causal universe, and since he does not depend on His creation, it is reasonable to say "God knows everything that will happen YET I have free will".

God knows what choices we will make of our own free will, but this does not mean these choices have already happened or they are already written, because God is not a causal agent in the universe.

The events "I make my own choices" and "God knows which choices I will make" happen on two different levels of meaning, so they are not mutually exclusive.

This is a simplification of the issue so please take it in context, and keep in mind that God's independence of time is something that we can only comprehend in a limited fashion as human beings.

Answer 6

To sset the record straight Pre destination is not part of Christian teaching it belongs to th eastern religions as does forordination and Yes God does have a plan you dont make the universe and al in it without a detailed plan for it but like all intelligent creation we have free will when he gave the nation of Israel the Ten Commandments he told them what blessings would be in store for them if they followed the law and what would happen if they CHOSE TO DISOBEY just as we have laws today if we break them they have consequences he wants us to obey and follow his laws because we love him and what he has done is doing and will yet do for us and it relly benefits us by obeying him as he knows whats best for us just like a parent has rules for children to benefit them ie dont touch its hot or dont cross the street or dont drink and drive you get the concept now hope so best wishes read your Bible Gorbalizer

Answer 7

wait a minute,
I would agree with you if it was all planned and it would not be fair for anyone to be punished if they did not make any decision on their own. however it is not like that at all.

when god crated man he said this is my BEST creation. god was challenged by Satan and his followers.even Adam was not sure of that. god said men is best creation because he KNEW that, not because he was challenged. He put us on earth to prove it
to us that we are the best (and still we don't believe that we are)
god gave us free will. he does not plan our life, but he knows what decisions we are going to make he knows everything about what everyone will do but he doesn't plan it for us.it is our free will.
now , god knew what we are going to do and still he said we are the best creation then i think at the end we will overcome Satan completely, that's god's faith on us.

Answer 8

Predestination - the universal belief system for people too afraid to take control of their own lives.

Answer 9

You do make your choices, but if we are to believe God knows all, then we are to believe God knows what choices we make.

God doesn't contrive a plan for you to brush your teeth everynight. You do that.

Answer 10

This is a huge concept. I would be happy to discuss it with you in a calm manner and try to answer all your questions. Feel free to email me and we can discuss it. I can give you my cell # from there.

Be Blessed