For wiccan or Pagan believers please...would you like the religions to be more open?

Question

Many people have come with the assumption wiccans are like Merlin or some fictional world bending powerful witch. Personally I think the modern pagan religions have more posers than actual believers, its sad really. I was trained since I was 4+ in the wiccan religion and my mentor at the time was raised in it aswell and everything I learnt was my word of mouth. Because of the fiction behind the matter most pagan are misunderstood and because of lack of real writeings most writers have learnt they can BS a book together about it and get by very well. 80% of the books I have encountered are total BS. 95%+ where books after 1990. Because its not very well documented many people leave us alone but many don't understand us and give us "false labels" so for the REAL believers would you like more real wiccan/pagan writers out documenting facts so that maybe others of other faiths would understand our beliefs better (if they have open enough minds to start with) or to leave everything as it is

nice turn out and so quick to answer :D makes me happy, Yeah I would like alot of the higher ups only to write out the believe system mainly because others can understand and everythough I hadn't thought of it yeah alot of the true believes might have several key factors wrong. If you wanna get technical Wicca itself prolly has hundreds of... *thinks* denominations? Some believe in various gods and goddesses throughtout history some believe in 1 alpowerful being. Me myself I was raised in a god and goddess sat us here on earth to live as we saw fit and when we die they welcome us back to the whole in the summerlands. I myself never even got into the ranking system XD. Sadly I live in the southern US so I can't exactly go out looking for others to talk to on it since these people still think its the burning times LoL

spamahoy: nice research btw it was 1954 and btw that was unsubstanciated to be the "start" of wicca for that matter. Garder was never proven or disproved but for your info my family has been involved long long before the 1950s infact my family line traces back to the early 1700s. I will not argue he was a mad man but please research more before makeing bold claims and without throwing out all the facts. Garder's records where morely on some weird cross tranditionalisem or wicca where he took tons of the traditions and strung them together into the popular form of mordern wicca hence he was a poser and was a "Fluffy bunny" ignorant to the true nature of the religion. If you require some real info please contact Pippy poo since he seems pretty well informed on the history.

Answer 1

OK, let's start with the real history of Wicca. It was started by Gerald Gardner circa 1950 who lied and said he had found a stone age cult of Pagans that had somehow hid in the tiny British Isles where nothing stays hidden for long...let alone 50,000 years. He was a disciple of Aleister Crowley from who he plagarized many writings for the BoS. Like most "witchcraft cults" before (Hellfire Club, LaVisosin, etc.), it started as a sex club. He was a nudist & masochist who liked to be tied up and beaten by strong willed women, and coincidentally (if you're dense), his magic witch cult just happen to practice these things.

Answer 2

Well the main problem is that since the 90's and movies and shows such as "The Craft", "Practical Magick", and "Charmed" came out, lots of teens and others saw this and said "wow, cool I can do magick" and jumped in head first without knowing the spirituality behind paganism or wicca . Other kids see it as a way to pi$$ off mom and dad. In the above cases, it's usually a phase and they wander off to something else. This is also the reason many covens and groups don't allow anyone under 18 without their parents being involved (not to mention possible lawsuits from angry parents).
As far as books being 95% BS, which books are you referring to? There are so many out there, by Wiccan/ Pagan writers (that actually do practice) I wonder if you're not looking in the right places. Try the "New Age/ Metaphysical" section in a bookstore next time.

Regarding "false labels", all you can do is live your own life and try to make it an example of what a wiccan or pagan should be. There are always going to be ignorant people who accuse you of being a "devil worshiper" or some other nonsense. Thankfully they are a minority nowadays.

Answer 3

I am Pagan, but not Wiccan. Nothing in my belief system resembles Wicca in the slightest- though we have adopted the traditional "Wiccan" holidays for convenience sake. I am completely open to teaching others, and I don't hide my religion or pretend I "fit in". However, I do believe in improvising, modernizing the "old ways". After all, I can't have a white bull BBQ for Poseidon down at the beach anymore, can I? There are alot of things that have had to change, but the basic truths- the mysteries if you like- remain the same. Unfortunately, most modern Pagans never get to them.

I agree with you about the books. I'm working on writing some books myself. I really haven't the time, but I would really like honest seekers to have something more than tripe to read. Interestingly, I have found the best "Pagan" books to be written by people who don't claim to be writing for a Pagan audience. Like Deepak Chopra and Ron Miguel Ruiz. But they don't teach beliefs, only worldview and philosophy, which is an important foundation, of course, but doesn't give you "religion".

With regard to Pagan morality, which you didn't bring up, but I do because I can, I am frequently dismayed. I was very surprised when I entered the community at large about five years ago to find that the ethical teachings of modern Pagans is so vastly different from my own and I am frequently uncomfortable with the behaviour others exhibit and all claim "The Rede" as their law (Which has nothing to do with me) which apparently gives them liscence to harm nobody but themselves.

So yes, indeed, we should be more open. We should let folks know that no, we aren't all Wiccans, and there are other options and there are mysteries beyond the "Wheel of the Year" and the Duality. Which are miserable simplifications!

And we should tell folks like Mr. Freedom that we don't worship statues (The only God statues I have I chose because they fit my bathroom decor, they aren't even Gods I worship), but have personal relationships with our Gods.

Answer 4

I got to admit that I am less then thrilled with Hollywood and all the stereotypes. But I have also seen that most of the folks who are less then serious wander off to do something else in a year or two.

As far as what gets written I'm a big fan of going and checking on that folks are calling historical facts. If it doesn't pan out the book get sold to a used bookstore. I love myths that are myths but, when the author starts generating BS I have no time for it.

My favorite bit of BS was someone talking about an Irish Potato Goddess. I can't remember the title or who wrote it but I read that and just tossed the book in the trash.

So to your question. I would like to see some of the more traditional groups be more open. I'm sure what they would have to say would be quite enlightening.

Pabs

bb
Pabs

Answer 5

There's a whole lot of posers/fluffy bunnies in the community. Until that changes, I don't think we're going to be able to change public perception, simply because the fluffy bunnies tend to be the most vocal.

(As an aside, but "fluffy bunny", I mean the willfully ignorant, the ones who believe that opinion trumps fact and refuse to accept data to the contrary. These are the folks fed by the BS that some of the authors put out - such as Edain McCoy's Potato Goddess that someone else mentioned.)

Being open helps - but our voice is being drowned out, a needle in a haystack. We'd need to clean up our own community first - and there is *significant* resistance to that. Perhaps rightly so, given that Pagans typically resist (at least on a theoretical level) allowing others to dictate religious practice. However, it's led to people being able to indulge in flights of pure fantasy, and the community mores that were supposed to preserve individuality are being twisted to encourage bad behavior.

Answer 6

I'm not sure if I'd want my religion to be more open or not. Yes, I would like for there to be information for seekers to find us if they would want to. No, I would not want my religion to become an "anything goes" religion.

I am very disgusted by the BS authors and the publisher that keeps pumping out their witchcrap books. I very seldom buy any of their books anymore because I don't want to support their unethical behavior. So many people want to learn and then they invest their time and money in that junk just to find out later that there really wasn't an ancient Irish Potato Goddess and pumpkins did not dot the English countryside in the times of King Arthur. It is hard to expect the general public to take pagans serious when they spout rubbish like this. And if I hear one more time about how the ancient Celts believed in a myth of Holly and Oak Kings, I am going to scream. It is a wonderful, modern, non-Celtic myth---why must people claim it is something it is not? The words "Celtic" and "Wicca" sells books and our US public schools do not teach much critical reading skills. It is sad, but what's worse is when the fluffies refuse to research deeper than the newest "How to Become a (fill in the blank) in 21 Days or Less" comic book.

I would love to have more factual information available. The problem is that so many of those who claim to practice a neo-pagan religion would be against the truth that it wouldn't be widely distributed. If our OWN members don't want the truth, how can we expect those of other faiths to want to learn?

My favorite website about authors who pass on inaccurate information:
http://www.cyberwitch.com/wychwood/Library/whenIsACeltNotACelt.htm

Answer 7

Wow. you've left us a lot to discuss, here. As to the actual question as asked: do i think the religions shouold be more open? Yes, to a certain extent. What I mean by this is various pagan religions should have a more public profile. People aren't afraid of what is right in front of them. Many of us are very involved in our religions, and various charitable causes. Wouldn't it be great if the public KNEW THIS? So, as a beginning, I am involved in my community, and refuse to hide my beliefs.

There really are some good books out there. But, as has been pointed out by Carlin, ninety percent of everything is crap. You have to do a little digging to get to the good stuff, but that has its upside. The search for knowledge is all that much more rewarding if you have had to work to get what you want. It's so exciting to finally get to the meat of the subject. The people who stop at the "get witch quick" books are immediately obvious, and anyone with any common sense knows not to associate with them.

You seem to take the idea that Gardner founded wicca in the fifties to heart. Don't. He did, it's been proven, but that's ok. (don't take my word for it- take Ronald Hutton's word for it. _The Triumph of the Moon_ will really help you out, here. This is NOT TO SAY that there were not witches before that. Witch and WIcca are not synonymous. There were cunning folk in the seventeen and eighteen hundreds certainly. But they were not part of an organised movement. They were really quite solitary, although there was at least one documented family of cunning folk. As for tracing your family's practice back to the seventeen hundreds- sure, that can be true. (ninety percent of people who claim it are full of crap, but I'll not dismiss your claim out of hand.) For one thing, in the seventeen hundreds, there were a number of organisations that would be called "pagan" today. My own family were involved in Iolo Morganwg's druidry of that era.

Answer 8

The real problem with Wicca is that it had to go underground during the Inquisition. When it surfaced again (one of the first books published took place during the late 1940s) there was still a great deal of fear that we would be persecuted. That fear still exists and with good reason. As long as the majority of people out there believe that Pagans and Wiccans worship the devil, our lives will be in danger.

The other problem that you inadvertently stated in your post is that the tradition was an oral one. There weren't many people who could read and write back in the 12 hundreds so a lot of the tradition was handed down by word of mouth. We must now suffer those who "think" they know about Wicca writing crap and getting it published. So in a way, I must answer "yes," to your question. It would be much better for us all if only Third Degree Priesthood were allowed to write about it. Then, maybe, the general public would get the truth. Still, if they did, would they not be putting their lives in danger?

Answer 9

i like things as they are.. the burning times are not so far gone and are not forgotten.

i would prefer that somethings that are hidden remain hidden.

look at the government of the U.S today, they are not far from putting religious (christian) beliefs into law. once this happens they will begin making this a christian country. we could well end up hunted again...

i feel that some secrets are needed.

people that want to know about us from other faiths likely only wish to demonise us. no matter how much of a book is true they will make it "Satanic" or "Evil"

I have been a Pagan since i can remember... but i am of a differant breed... I was taught first by the fair folk and the trees..
i have been able to see the fey and hear the trees sing since a can remember. it was not untill i was 18 and out of the back woods of pennsylvania that i had a name for what i knew...

i do not claim Wicca or Druidry,,

I follow the Celtic gods because I have found connection with them...

because i am not a witch, a Wiccan or a Druid, and i would not presume to call myself a shaman,

i call what i am N_A_P_A_S

new age practicioner of ancient spiritualism...

i am not trying to reconstruct ancient beliefs, i seek new wisdom beside ancient spiritualism...

if this makes sense to you please visit my 360 page and join the yahoo group of that title.

***************************************************88
EDIT

the irish potato goddess was writen up by Edian Mccoy,
i do not know which book it was in but it was that writer.

Answer 10

I will agree that there are alot of people in the Wiccan/Pagan community who are just out to make money. For example, I went to Pagan Pride on Saturday and there was a man there called Ed. Ed Runs a paranormal investigation group in the Southern Chicagoland Region. He makes road trips to locations and takes a video camera with him. He advertises the fact that he takes a "Spiritual Approach" to investigating.

What you don't know until you accompany him (he charges for that BTW) is that he has no real scientific equipement. He doesn't follow the Paranormal Investigators standards or the rules of evidence. Because he doesn;t know how to discern what evidence really is he thinks of everything as evidence. He stepped into a forest and the air got heavier. That will happen naturaly due to the tree cover causing wind resistence compared to outside of the forest which is right next to a highway.

We were appaulled at his arrogance and the fact that he calls himself an expert. Its ridiculous. Moreover, his spiritual rituals which he calls circles of energy are not based on any magickal standards as well, he just holds hands and closes his eyes. (I didn't participate in this part because I don't agree with his magickal methods. While in the "Cirlce of Energy" He taunted the Spirits daring them to come forward. That's another big no no.

There were a few of his regulars that attended this meeting. These people all call themselves Wiccan execpt Ed who says he has no set spiritual belief. The Wiccan entourage were simply feeding off each others theatrics. One would notice something and another would concur and claim to be in touch with the spirits. One claimed to be stabbed by one.

My husband and I who have spent time with real paranormal investigators left early from this excursion because we couldn't stand the smell of BS any longer.

But now he keeps popping up around Pagan Meetups and online groups trying to promote his stupid videos he takes and tours. It amazes me that so many people fall for this. But they do. This has weakened my ties to the Pagan community because I keep finding groups that are involved in his stuff. On You Tube, for example, the Correllian Nativists have his videos on their site.

I am really at my wits end with this guy and gullable Pagans who fall for it. Have we no common sense or are we so desparate to prove the paranormal that we will follow anyone?

I agree that there are so many fluffies out there it is hard to find the real thing. My husband and I practice together at the moment because we havent been able to find a coven that doesn't containa fluffy. I dont practice with fluffies or posuers or wanna be Charmed Ones.

Answer 11

I had to leave the Christian Church in which I was raised because I could not take the lies that were preached from the pulpit. So much crap was stated that didn't match the Bible it was rediculess. Now my brother says that I am "a devil worshiper" because I follow the Druid tradition.
It woudl be really nice if ONLY the truth were written in ANY religious writings. It also would be nice if the people who call themselves Christian would follow the teachings of Christ instead of that arrogant and bigoted writer Paul whose teachings don't match Christ's at all.
No the Moral Majority is NEITHER.
And we will suffer unless we get together and fight for Religious Freedom.