The bible says, "therefore since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perserverance the race that is set before us."
Can we pray to the saints?
Do they see our entire lives?
The verse is comforting.
2006-09-05 00:31:10 · 7 answers · asked by Villain 6 in Society & Culture ➔ Religion & Spirituality
Hebrews 12:1
2006-09-05 00:51:14 · update #1
Read in context, Hebrews 12:1 is the capstone to an exhortation on the power of faith, saying that each of the great names of the OT accomplished what they accomplished through faith. So the "cloud of wtnesses" line refers back to the list of OT heroes just given. Taken out of context, as you have done, you could mistake it to be a claim that we're all walking about in a cloud of beings watching our every move. That notion doesn't enter Christianity for several centuries. Most especially the polytheistic notion of praying to saints.
1 Timothy 2:5 answers that notion plainly:
1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks, be made for all men: 2 for kings and all who are in high places; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all; the testimony in its own times
The RCC attempts to skirt this unequivocal declaration by saying the saints are merely "sub-mediators" handling the small stuff for a busy God, as though God's omniscience and omnipotence are insufficient to handling everything Himself. This is of course weasel words on the part of the RCC since a "sub-mediator" is still a mediator and Paul still declares there is only one mediator.
The author of the Book of Hebrews, most particulary 7:25 also declares:
Hebrew 7:23 The former priests, on the one hand, existed in greater numbers because they were prevented by death from continuing, 24 but Jesus, on the other hand, because He continues forever, holds His priesthood permanently. 25 Therefore He is able also to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them. 26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.28 For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.
Jesus is the intercessor. The saints, which are all converts, not those singled out for honor through the RCC political system, still sleep and are not aware of anything we do according to Paul:
1 Thess 4:13 But we don't want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who have fallen asleep, so that you don't grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we tell you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left to the coming of the Lord, will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, 17 then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.
So you see, the saints sleep until the Lord's return, then the dead in Christ rise. The sleeping have no awareness of the waking world, or prayers addressed to them or through them.
For the Christian, the comfort in Hebrews 12 is that those who have trusted in God can persevere and acheive great things sola fide, by faith alone. The comfort in 1 Timothy 2:5 and Hebrews 7:25 is that the Son of God personally intercedes for the believer forever, and the comfort in 1Thessalonians 4 is that those believers who have preceded the Christian in death are merely sleeping, to be awakened and reunited with their Christian loved ones at the Lord's return.
That's a long answer to assure you that:
1. You cannot call upon dead people, no matter how devout they may have been in life. It is necromancy and forbidden:
Deuteronomy 18:9ff When you enter the land which the LORD your God gives you, you shall not learn to imitate the detestable things of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, one who uses divination, one who practices witchcraft, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11 or one who casts a spell, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to the LORD; and because of these detestable things the LORD your God will drive them out before you.
2. They do not see your life or anything else because they sleep as Paul states in 1 Thessalonians 4 above.
3. The verse is comforting on the basis of what it's really saying in the context of the whole of Hebrews chapter 12, but it does not mean what you have misinterepreted it to say by removing it from its otherwise plain context.
2006-09-05 01:09:53 · answer #1 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋
Heb 12.
Let's move back to Heb 11, and it will be helpful if you also covers the previous chapter too.
In Heb 11, it speaks of many who pin their hope on Jesus, yet in their life time, they do not see it.
We pin on the same hope, but we have the previlage to experienced it.
Since there are so many before us who pin their faith of Jesus, let us do so, as they are, and look forward for the coming of the Lord. Run and do not slow down.
That is basically in my own word.
2006-09-05 00:42:11 · answer #2 · answered by Melvin C 5 · 0⤊ 0⤋
I do not believe in praying to saints, as they can't intercede to God on our behalf-- only Christ is our mediator and intercessor.
They may indeed see our lives, and they probably ask that our suffering decreases (the souls under the alter in the book of Revelation), but as far as us having our own personal saint to pray to, not happening. never mentioned in the bible
2006-09-05 00:38:47 · answer #3 · answered by retro 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
Where in the bible did you get that verse from? Nice verse though, but I also see the witnessess as angels or fellow christians.
2006-09-05 00:40:08 · answer #4 · answered by tolquit 2 · 0⤊ 0⤋
It means that God and his Angels are constantly watching our every move so leave sins to one side and go through your journey in God's way.
Only pray to God/Jesus and not saints.
2006-09-05 00:37:32 · answer #5 · answered by Funny Bunny 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
It means that the angels are always watching us and No.... we are only to pray to God.
Peace.
2006-09-05 00:34:20 · answer #6 · answered by KeAhi 3 · 0⤊ 0⤋
does this mean, on judgement day all my skeletons are drag out on display for every tom, dick or harry to see?
2006-09-05 00:38:55 · answer #7 · answered by Anonymous · 0⤊ 0⤋