Any christians who care to respond to this?

Question

"A thorough reading and understanding of the Bible is the surest path to atheism” ~ Donald Morgan

Let's consider the cosmology of Genesis. In biblical times, people thought that the earth and heaven were all that there was... and that the earth was essentially a 'terrarium' (you might want to look that up). They thought that the sky was a solid object, called the 'firmament', and that the sun, moon, and stars were affixed to it. So, essentially, heaven is 'on the other side of the sky'.

The story of Genesis is comprised of the myths, superstitions, fairy tales and fantastical delusions of an ignorant bunch of Bronze Age fishermen and wandering goat herders, lifted from the oral traditions of other cultures, and crafted into a tale that incorporated some of their own folk tales and pseudo-history. This collection of ignorance provides the basis for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism... Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

The cosmological aspects of Genesis are perfectly understandable, if you contemplate it in the proper context. At the time the bible stories were concocted, the perception was that the earth was the object and the center of creation. Why? Because they had no reason to think otherwise. Today, as we advance science, we stand upon the shoulders of all the scientists that came before. Back then there were no shoulders to stand upon... so they did the best they could with what they had... their senses and their imaginations.

* They had no concept of 'outer space', and so they conceived that in the beginning all that existed were dark waters.

* They had no concept of 'nothingness'. Remember, the concept of 'zero' wasn't invented (discovered?) until thousands of years later. With that in mind, the term 'void', as it is employed in Genesis, can not refer to 'nothingness'... it can only be applied in its alternative definition, which is 'empty'. So, the waters were dark, formless and empty (devoid of content).

* They thought that all of creation consisted of the earth and an unseen 'heaven', and they thought that the sky was a 'thing'... a substantive 'firmament' (the sky) that was created by god to separate the waters and differentiate earth from heaven, when both were created.

# They had no idea that Earth was a planet, orbiting the sun.

# They had no idea that there is no firmament... that the sky is not a 'thing'.

(If you don't believe that they thought the sky was an object... a solid barrier... consider the Tower of Babel, that they were building to reach heaven. Apparently, God ALSO thought that the sky was an object, since it concerned him so much that he confounded their speech, so as to disrupt their project and keep them from reaching his domain. God must be pretty much of a dumbass, if he doesn't even know the actual configuration of the universe that he created. So much for the 'inerrant' bible.)

* They thought that the sun was a light that god had placed upon the 'firmament' to differentiate night from day.

# They had no idea that the sun is a star... the center of our solar system.

# They had no concept of 'stars' in the same sense that we understand them today.

* They had no idea that night and day were a consequence of the earth's rotation.

* They thought that the moon was a 'lesser' light that god had caused to travel across the firmament to enable man to differentiate the seasons, and provide illumination at night.

# They had no concept of the moon as a satellite.

* They thought that the stars were tiny lights that god had placed upon the firmament to provide for omens. (Some thought that the stars were 'holes' in the firmament that allowed the 'light of heaven' to shine through.)

# They had no idea that the stars were suns, just like our own sun.

# They thought the eyeball-visible planets (Mercury, Mars, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn) were 'wandering stars'.

# They had no idea that the planets were actually sun-orbiting bodies, just like earth.

* They had no idea that the earth, itself, is a planet.

# They had no clue as to the actual nature of the earth, our solar system, the place of our solar system in the galaxy... or even of the existence of our galaxy. (Up until very recently, we didn't even know that there were other galaxies. Our galaxy, when it was first known that there actually WAS a galaxy, was thought to be the whole universe.) From their perspective, the 'earth' and 'heaven' (i.e., whatever existed on the other side of the sky) represented all that there was. A terrarium.

I do not say this things to disparage what they thought back then. They were trying to do what science is trying to do today... trying to understand reality. Today, we have technology and disciplined meta-procedures (scientific method) to help us extract answers from nature.

Back then, they did not.

Today, we have 'theories' to provide consistent explanations for what we are able to observe in nature, supplemented and validated by the additional information that we are able to extract from nature by means of our technology, our disciplined methods and our intellectual tools (mathematics, logic). Most of our theories are incomplete, so we continue to work on them... because we know that they are incomplete.

Back then, they did not have disciplined methods, and they did not have the technology to extract answers from nature. The only information they had access to was what they could see with their own eyeballs. There was no technological knowledge base or scientific context in which to interpret their observations, so they had to appeal to their imaginations... and the 'supernatural'... in order to make sense out of what they saw. Actually, what they really achieved was deluding themselves into thinking that they knew the truth. Amazingly, over time, this delusion has become codified, institutionalized, and incorporated... complete with franchises.

Basically, Genesis can be thought of as a 'theory', concocted by people who were constrained by lack of technology, methodology and intellectual tools... but they sure weren't constrained by lack of imagination.

Today, we try to interpret Genesis in the context of what we know to be true of the universe... galaxies, stars, planets, moons, gravity, orbits, inclination of the earth's axis, planetary rotation, etc. They problem is that Genesis can't be interpreted in terms of those things, because Genesis was written by men, based on oral traditions, and those men did not know about those things. They could only write about what they could see and what they could guess about the reasons that lay behind what they saw. In any event, it provided them with a mechanism to quell the innate anxiety that comes with fretting about how and why they came to be here.

They guessed wrong.

So... I think that the cosmological aspects of Genesis require a literal interpretation... no metaphors... no allegory... no hidden meaning. The key, though, is in understanding that the literal interpretation does not lead to a description of the way things ARE... it leads to a description of the way they THOUGHT things are. It leads to a naive description of reality, concocted by people who were doing the best they could with what they had.

It is absolutely appalling, though, to realize that hundreds of millions of people, TODAY, including participants in this forum, BELIEVE that this ignorant bovine excrement is actually TRUE.

Answer 1

Very thorough, very informative, very enlightening. Too bad it falls on deaf ears.

You say "um, hey, look, this is all a confused and naive interpretation of natural phenomena which was impossible to perceive through the eyes of science and understanding as it didn't exist yet... it's all a bunch of stories to help a simple people cope with the strange and frightening... but we've evolved, we can move on..."

And people respond "You'll be sorry when our deity kicks your butt in the afterlife! Oh you wait... you just wait... it's true, ALL TRUE!!!"

*sigh*

Answer 2

I agree with what you said. I think it's great you took the time out to write all this. Unfortunately, I'm afraid you'll get few decent answers from Christians. The ones that come to this site don't seem open minded enough to even take you seriously or give it a serious thought, not many of them at least. Perhaps they think that if they question anything written in the Bible they'll go to hell.

Anyway, your question sums up pretty much the reason why I think it doesn't make sense to follow organized religion. Books like the Bible and Qu'ran etc. were written by people, and although those people were inspired by their own faith in God, they wrote their interpretation of the world in there and their interpretations have been passed on to others through centuries and presented as the holy truth. So people today are living by standards and a world view that was normal centuries ago, but are outdated with the knowledge we have today.

I think it's normal that some people believe in God although I don't believe in him myself. After all there's a lot of things we haven't found explanations for yet and God is some people's way of explaining those things. But I honestly think it's a shame that people are being brainwashed into following literally something written by other people a long time ago. Those books were written by people and at the time people had less knowledge and less understanding of the world than today so of course they couldn't explain everything. Their ignorance and interpretations that have been proven wrong are still being presented as the truth and religions refuse to acknowledge that their holy books are wrong about some things and shouldn't be taken literally and threaten people will hell if they think otherwise.

Anyway, I'm an atheist, but I just wanted to tell you I agree with you completely and I look forward to seeing whether some Christians actually respond to this and debate about it.

Answer 3

Hey man, i agree with you as i am atheist, but no matter how many facts you throw at Christians they will hold on to their faith. Faith is how these people are brainwashed into thinking that if they just pray and go by the rules written in the Bible as they are interpreted by their congregations' leaders that they will go to this happy utopia and if they don't they will be punished with fire. They will never stop blindly following (or being "faithful to") what they are taught to believe because they don't want to. It is much easier to swim with the current and the three main monotheistic religions (And it's messed up how they call all polytheistic religions devil worshippers) and people are weak. Opiate for the masses isn't that what religion is referred to? it is a drug, they get a spiritual high and they are VERY addicted to it.
What i find funny is how so many people condone Israel yet follow its ancient religion and hold it as absolute truth.

So no matter how much evidence you show to monotheistics they will give you quotes from their holy book(s) and make idiots of themselves as those quotes are only important if you believe that those books are the only source of truth

I loved reading your forum though, very thorough and convincing, that is if you aren't a spiritual junkie

Answer 4

By the way have you go into details on how human body is like on the inside? What happen if our heart is in the brain? Hand is at the back? If planet earth exchange place with mercury? If you go into all this details, you will know everything is perfectly created or came by chance if you believed in Darwin. I agree with you, in most of the thing you said but you had to answer to why everything seem to be so perfect. Please christian let tried not to be bigot.

Answer 5

Greetings mr super dave,
you should consider writing science fiction.... quite an imagination you have there. You must have a time machine to know what everyone thought way back yonder....surely you don't believe all this nonsensical gibberish that you just posted????
Have you ever checked out the creation network.org???? You make up any thing that you want sir but the bottom line is that you "will" stand before a HOLY GOD someday to give an account for the way that you chose to live your life... deny it your whole life if you want to but the second that you step over into eternity you will find out that hell is real and filled with people who rejected CHRIST THE LORD.... that's a pretty big gamble your taking there... and one more thing sir, the BIBLE is an anvil that has worn out many a hammer through the centuries....
~GOD BLESS YOU AND ENLIGHTEN YOU WITH ALL TRUTH~

Answer 6

Did you ever think that Bible and body of scientific knowledge is compatible? There are more things in heaven and earth etc. etc.
There is nothing wrong with believing in the Genesis story and say Darwin. You must find the truth for yourself not criticizing how others believe. The journey has it own rewards.

Answer 7

Your question is not really a question at all then. Your question seems to a statement that all observations, recordings and conclusions of the ancient people of biblical times are "bovine excrement" and could not possibly be true.

Why do you suppose we should care what you think?

I find the conclusions reached by atheists to be "bovine excrement". Educated Idiots who have nothing better to do than bash the beliefs and ideas of others.

Answer 8

When you read the Bible you must read it in context and taking in consideration of the times and events taking place, and also to whom it is written. So to say that you must take it literally in light of what we think we know today is ludicrous, and you really do not know a thing about which you speak.
There are so many errors in your ranting that I have neither the time nor the inclination to properly dispute this with you, so I will not waste any more time on this.

Answer 9

No, I don't believe I would. It is not a matter of ability, I could easily answer any and every argument you might bring up, but it is a matter of principle.
You have no fear of God and therefore you are a fool (Psalms 14:1, Psalms 53:1, Proverbs 28:26). A fool cannot understand anything (Proverbs 17:10, Proverbs 17:24, Proverbs 24:7, etc.), as a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly (Proverbs 26:11), I am not to speak in the ears of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of my words (Proverbs 23:9).
You do not want answers, you want to mock God. But the laugh will be on you come judgment day.
You know the truth, you have been warned to repent, if you do not, your blood will be upon your own head.

Repent,
Zach Doty

Answer 10

Must applaud you for your effort, you will actually pass the weight test if it was printed.

How can you explain, the daily encounters which Christians have with God and how God answers their prayers?

However you analyse it, you are still using human thoughts and process and you will never really be able to draw a proper conclusion.