Ladies: I keep hearing from the boys about what a great idea this is. I need your opinions...?

Question

First, I don't agree with the following scripture. So if you agree, please explain why.

Second, Boys: you get a thumbs-down from me just for answering. I've asked about this passage twice today. Almost -all- answers were from men. Check my profile, find the question, and answer there. This question is for the ladies (which you ain't ;-).


I Timothy 2:9-15

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
"But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.
"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
"But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over men, but to be in silence.
"For Adam was first formed, then Eve.
"And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
"Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety."

paparazzichelle: I oppose anything that insists men and women should be treated differently, or that assumes there is some fundamental difference in their abilities to think, talk, question, etc.

All of the explanations I've received that tried to justify this passage assumed that women were guilty of something, but not the men. Essentially they argued that men are one step closer to God than women. I reject that proposition.

holyflusher: thumbs-down means I no longer see your answer. Bad boy, go answer in one of the two questions I asked earlier on this topic.

Answer 1

I feel conflicted over this.

First, this is Timothy's "take" (for lack of a better word) on things. Timothy was helping Paul in setting up churches all over the place, and their letters were to specific people in specific places, addressing specific concerns, logistics, and whatnot.

In other words, this is from the mouth of a man, not the mouth of God.

Before you charge me--like you usually do--with "picking and choosing" in the Bible, you should know that the Bible does have many different facets to it. There are words out of the Savior's mouth; there are words out of men's mouths. An easy distinction. Christ did give Peter the authority and obligation to begin building the church; Jesus did appear to Saul who was persecuting Christians and who came to become the Lord's servant and changed his name to Paul; and Paul was given authority to continue establishing Christ's church. All of this is true. Yet it still stands that Paul (and Timothy et al.) were men, and Christ was God.

Another sort of preface here is that I am a woman (duh), and I do not keep silent as a rule. I do "keep silent" with regard to formal ministering, as I am not a priest, minister, and so forth, nor do I intend to be, nor do I want to be. I "agree" that this is men's work. Why? Because. I cannot back it up because I haven't gotten to that point in my spiritual path. It has just been illuminated to me by God that men are priests and women are not. Take this scanty argument at face value. It is not an argument, in other words. It is just what I have been given to understand.

Take into account, also, that I do not keep silent when a Christian fellow needs rebuking. If a man I know, who is a Christian, is going against God's law, I feel it is my responsibility to point it out to him. I do not harp and whatnot, but just point it out. Is this a crime? No. Is it against God's law? No, God has no such law.

(As you'll notice, I am answering this question half-assedly based on personal intuition. Again, I have not been given full illumination from God on these matters. I reckon I shall, but I haven't yet. Therefore my talk here is a little contorted, because I myself am a little contorted. Behold a Christian woman on the path, not at the destination.)

The way I understand things is that the man is to be the spiritual leader of the household. If I find a man to entrust my spiritual life with, I shall happily follow him. ... There is this aspect for you to consider as well. I will follow no man into Hell. So far as I can tell, God does not wish for me to forfeit my salvation for any earthly terms whatsoever. God does not wish me to break his commandments for any person. God gave his law indiscriminately. SO, if a man is on a righteous path, and I am his wife, you bet that I will submit to his leadership.

Good men are hard to find. Another point.

As far as silence in general, I am quiet normally except when compelled to speak in truth. My life is disciplined by God. Is this what Timothy means about "silence with all subjection"? Who knows.

Timothy also seems a little bit like he is absolving Adam. Adam did do what Eve suggested he do. This does not absolve him. If I murder you because someone suggests to me that it's a good idea that I do it, I shall not be absolved of guilt. I think that Timothy is a little cracked on this point. It's okay; he's allowed to be. He is, after all, a human being. Peter was cracked when he suggested that Christ not go into Jerusalem. It's okay. Jesus loved him, cracks and all.

As far as being saved in childbearing, I don't know where Timothy is coming from. I really don't.

I look to God and Jesus for all authority. Timothy, bless his heart, is not my salvation.

Oh, and as for the adorning ourselves in modest apparel and so forth, I am totally for that. It is unfitting for a Christian woman to dress like a harlot. And the "gold, pearls, or costly array" thing...that seems Christ-inspired. Not the things of this world that have value, but the things of the spirit.

You are using the Scripture in the hopes of raising hell, I guess. Who knows why you do what you do. It is good that you are at least cracking a Bible this time, though, since your opinions are generally just from the authority of your own head, which gets tiresome.

Why not read the four Gospels? You may find yourself charged with obligations, confusions, admonishments, and difficulties as well. That is, instead of attempting to get Christian women all in a fluff, it might serve your soul well were you to get in a fluff.

For whatever purposes you are seeking knowledge about Christianity, I hope that it comes to you that you yourself can very well seek salvation. And not only is it advisable, it is mandatory.

Because any discussion of Christian theology becomes infinitely more interesting, complex, and beautiful if you yourself are a Christian. Then you must treat things with respect instead of merely tossing them out there in the hopes that people will attack them--and so you can sit back, arms folded across your chest, feeling all superior.

You aren't. You aren't all superior.

Anyone who is with God would feel not the slightest bristle of pride when reading those two sentences above.

Answer 2

This whole passage concerns what is and isn't appropriate for women who profess to love and serve God. Of course, anything that would be immodest or sexually attractive should be avoided, whether clothing, hair, jewelry, or whatever.

There is some discussion over the context of the passage. Women were not held in high regard in society at the time, and if the church wasn't careful, the freedoms experienced in the church could bring reproach on the cause of Christ. There is also the possibility that some of the women were involved in or influenced by heresies that were present, and this was a move to protect both them and the fledgling church.

There is a reminder that while Eve was decieved, Adam willingly chose to sin. Therefore, both men and women are equally in need of God's salvation, and are capable of being saved. And even though the woman was deceived, Paul reminds his readers that God entrusted women with the special privilege and honor of training her children.

Paul holds up a high ideal of pure, holy, godly Women. This is not an excuse for treating anyone as a second-class citizen of the church. That would be to ignore the other parts of the Bible.

Answer 3

I think this passage is directly for the time in which it was written in--mostly the part of women not to teach but to be in silence. I think that goes more for the church. Look at how many churches are patriarchal--men hold certain keys that women don't but man and woman do not exist without one another. That's in the Bible somewhere too.
I believe that modesty means the lack of extremes, not that we aren't allowed to wear jewelry or be beautiful. It also depends on who we initend to dress for...for ourselves, for God, for others? That's very individual. However, we all know that true beauty lies within the heart, and no amount of outward beauty can outshine the woman who is adorned with good works.
Yes, Adam was formed first, but Eve was formed from Adam which makes her a part of him. Also, if it weren't for Eve partaking of the fruit, we wouldn't be here now would we?
Faith and charity are qualities all women should have. These are enough to get us through our trials.
Yes, Eve was decieved, but transgression and sin are two very different things. Transgression is making a mistake-doing something without a knowledge of the consequences. This doesn't mean that Eve was a sinner, and it doesn't mean that all women today are as well. But again I ask, where would we be if she had not partaken of the fruit? I say three cheers for Eve and her mistake, because we are the fruit of those mistakes.
I agree to parts, but not in all. There is a reason all of these things are said, but you have to remember how many times the Bible was translated and how maybe things could have been translated incorrectly to fit times and those preaching....
Anywho, there ya are.

Answer 4

this is what I Timothy 2:9-15 means 8-10Since prayer is at the bottom of all this, what I want mostly is for men to pray—not shaking angry fists at enemies but raising holy hands to God. And I want women to get in there with the men in humility before God, not primping before a mirror or chasing the latest fashions but doing something beautiful for God and becoming beautiful doing it.

11-15I don't let women take over and tell the men what to do. They should study to be quiet and obedient along with everyone else. Adam was made first, then Eve; woman was deceived first—our pioneer in sin!—with Adam right on her heels. On the other hand, her childbearing brought about salvation, reversing Eve. But this salvation only comes to those who continue in faith, love, and holiness, gathering it all into maturity. You can depend on this.

Answer 5

We know the Bible don't get old and what I mean by that it don't need to be up date because God is the same today as he was yesterday.Everything that in the Bible happen in God time.God sent his comforter which is the Holy Spirit.When you read the Bible,it depend how close is your walk with the Lord is.God will give us understanding of the Bible.Everyone may not get the same interpertation.Today God is using women like never before.No I don't think women should be silence.In the Bible God use a donkey.Don't get me wrong they have to be a calling on that woman life.My opinion is there is more women in church then man.So God had to put his annointing on women.I hope this help.

Answer 6

My first concern with this doctor would be her attitude. I definitely wouldn't be comfortable taking my children to a doctor who spoke to me in that way. Some babies are simply big babies. Your son started out pretty good sized at 9 pounds and it sounds as if he has the genes to continue to be on the higher end of the percentile chart. I think giving him formula and breast milk on demand at 4 months is the best option. Rice cereal at this point in his life is simply a filler with no real nutritional value. I would be equally as upset and would most likely be on the hunt as soon as possible for a new pediatrician then take my son in for a second opinion. All the recommendations say to wait until 6 months to introduce solids plus babies on exclusive formula and breast milk diets do not need water or juice. In addition to being mom to 4 children I have also provided child care in my home for 21 years. I've seen a few good sized babies over the years. I currently care for a 7 month old baby is pushing 30 pounds. He's a good sized chunk, but he's happy and healthy. Mom works for a doctor's office and the doctors there say he is doing just fine. All babies are different. My youngest didn't hit 20 pounds until she was 15 months old and went through a "waif" period where she didn't reach 30 pounds until she was 3. The summer she turned 2 she lived on watermelon and cucumbers.

Answer 7

I believe that is part of 1 Timothy that is generally believed to not have been written by the apostle Paul but by one of his followers and added in at a later date.

The reasons sited are:

1. The style and context are out of place with the rest of the book.

2. It is contradictory to what is known to have been written by Paul wherein he addresses many women whom he names as his helpers, deacons and ministers of the church that were in their (the women's) houses and he even states that one woman helped to save his life.

3. That belief is far more in line with the beliefs that came about during and after the 2nd century and existed when the Latin (or Vulgate for vulgar or common language) Bible was written during the time of the Emporer Constantine.

I can't recall the name of the book but the title is something like "The Bible and how it was changed".

Answer 8

Basically, you can't listen to everything the Bible says even if you are a Christian. It's a good guideline, but you have to take it with a grain of salt- in addition to being a part of my religion, it's also a work of history, and a lot of what's written in there comes with the times. God didn't write the Bible, people did, and they wrote what was appropriate for their times. Plus, there were many translations by random ordinary people over the years until it was finally in English. So don't think that just because I'm a Christian and a woman doesn't mean I won't be your President one day. :)

Answer 9

What part is buggin you?? Modesty? Hey, all Christian women should strive to be modest in how they dress and not reveal too much. We would like to be not known as whores...which all the things described were indicative of during the early days of the church...you know braided hair, intertwined with gold and pearls. We are to be KNOW by our good works, not our dress.

Subjection? Is that the word bothering you? Maybe you do not get what it means? It is not about being someone's servant or UNEQUAL. It is about ME giving up a liberty in order to HELP my husband be a better man, father, leader in the home and in the church. We can strengthen authority or we can weaken it. It is not , repeat NOT about superiority or inferiority. We are in subjection to our husbands or fathers, not men in general.

The women are not the only ones who are told to be silent! All the men, who do not have the floor are told to be silent. All those who speak in tongues but have no interpreter present are told to be silent. We are ALL told to submit (there's that word again) ONE TO THE OTHER! No one has any right to STEAL or SEIZE (usurp) authority where it is not given. We all give up liberties to help each other in the body of Christ.

The order of creation? Is that bothering you? We cannot change that. Man was designed to stand between all things and his woman/wife as a shield of protection, as she is deemed the "weaker" vessel. That is not an insult. It is making reference to the design of the body and natural strength ability...not the mind or talent.

Problem is this...when Adam and Even sinned, they were punished and passed it down by SEED to all humans. NOW, we all die. Women have unnatural pain in childbirth, the ground was cursed and will not yield without extreme work and sweat, and WOMEN were made to remain with ONE husband her whole life and was placed UNDER his authority. These are punishments for sin....not to mention the biggie...DEATH became part of their life. Before they sinned, they did not die.

Answer 10

how about reading the beginning of the chapter:

1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone,
2
for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity.
3
This is good and pleasing to God our savior,
4
who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.
5
For there is one God. There is also one mediator between God and the human race, Christ Jesus, himself human,
6
who gave himself as ransom for all. This was the testimony 2 at the proper time.
7
For this I was appointed preacher and apostle (I am speaking the truth, I am not lying), teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8
3 It is my wish, then, that in every place the men should pray, lifting up holy hands, without anger or argument.

I think that it is saying mainly that women should be modest and not try to lord over the men. If you read corinthians paul says that men are head of the household in the same way that Jesus is head of the church and they should conduct themselves in like manner.