I got an anti-illegal immigration spam e-Mail and it got me thinking...?

Question

As a native California working in the health care field, some of this was not surprising, but some of it was. There is no question that illegal immigration affects social programs and funding and leads to closing of hospitals and rising medical and insurance costs.

These links summarize a lot of the problems contained in this e-mail. I welcome any comment but I am looking for intelligent and thoughtful comments please.

http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49965
http://www.frontpagemag.com/GoPostal/commentdetail.asp?ID=8643&commentID=117677
http://www.etherzone.com/2005/powe120605.shtml
http://www.rense.com/general68/stp.htm

I found some of the info countered on Snopes.com, some things were verified, some disproved, some still in questionl

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

The links were only meant to show the stats contained in the spam e-mail I received.

My question is: how can person who supports *illegal* immigration or amnesty possibly justify these kind of statistics, even if they are exaggerated, they are horrific.

Yes, I have lived in Southern California my whole life, I see it firsthand in the hospitals I've worked in, in the schools I send my children to, it permeates every facet of our life here. btw - my ex's family are Mexican immigrants, my current husband was born in Puerto Rico, his parents came here after he was born. I'm certainly not anti immigrant or racist, but I worry about the future of our country, in particular our border cities and states.

Answer 1

Well they had one of the big-wigs for Los Angeles stand up and say that their cost of support to illegals was estimated to be something like 1 billion annually, all told. I think you're going to hear a lot of different things, but one thing that definitely stands out as an eye-catcher is the frequently cited fact about drug trade in America, specifically its' Mexico origins.

There was a governor's meeting specifically addressing this, listed below.

Whatever other factors there are, this one's going to be hugely influential. Mexico just doesn't have control of their side of this one, nor do I think anyone really expects to see it go away.

Also, Mexico serves as a gateway for others from other countries seeking illegal entry into the United States. In these 'interesting times', lots of people are interested in seeing THAT stop.

Mexico's in tough times, yes, but these tough times don't warrant a free pass, no questions asked, into our country. We've got our own poor, our own social problems, and they're only exacerbated by adding more who, on top of all else, don't even speak english, which I think would be a Significant Barrier to ever becoming economically successful outside of the spanish-speaking community.

I think we should encourage legal immigration in reasoned fashion, we do have this 'welcome' sign on the door, but at the same time, there's other factors in all of this that need to be considered, nor is Mexico the sole source of illegal immigration into our country. This issue is a 'biggie', and it likely won't get solved right away, nor cheaply nor easily. What it will take to get a 'handle' on illegal immigration is a group effort, not only of community members and businesses, but also of state and local law enforcement, as well as more emphasis on helping the border patrol to be more effective, AND ensuring that illegal aliens actually end up leaving the country...I think Bush spoke pretty well by saying that the first step is security, after it's been proven that there's actually progress in decreasing the number of illegal aliens in our country by a good amount, THEN start talking about how and whether to have guest workers etc.

Our immigration system has been horribly broken for years. That's why people have taken to disregarding it in the first place.
And, while you can't blame people for wanting to make an honest buck, fresh start in life etc., at the same time, that's NOT why some people are sneaking in. Drugs, guns, gangs, ID theft, god knows what else, human trafficking, other forms of petty and grand larceny, thieves with a license to steal, assault and battery and murder and rape and incarceration statistics, these are all net negatives that in many cases can be traced back to the presence of illegal aliens in our communities.

While some of the claims against illegals are indeed puffed-up hyperbole, others are legitimate, sorting the wheat from the chaff will take reference, research, and careful reading, but when it's finally determined how big the elephant is, then it's time for some steak sauce and a napkin...we can help other countries without having policies that undermine ours. I think there should be immigration quotas, in light of one fact, namely that there's about 6.6 billion people in this world, a sizeable portion of which would LOVE to move into the United States in a hot second, if they thought they could, and while you can't blame them, at the same time, certain things did happen to make the United States a little more prosperous than say, hmm, el salvador, and part of that was that at some point, we generally adopted a rule of laws that govern many of our daily dealings, prohibit theft and murder, and bluntly spoken, those two are more common occurrences in countries that haven't come as far down the socioeconomic turnpike as the United States. Again, though, attempts to help these countries can be undertaken more constructively than just slamming your eyes shut while they run across our borders.

There's a right way, and a wrong way to conduct immigration, conduct meaning 'to lead, to direct to a successful conclusion'.
Much like an orchestral ensemble, That Which Is America works in concert to get from Tuesday to Thursday, if our citizens are musicians, the more accomplished ones 'keep the beat', and
the ones in the back chairs tend to miss a lot of notes, or play their own tune as it were. Then you get the 3 kids that snuck in from the punk band that broke up, and the one guy that couldn't tell a tuba from a tambourine, so he just bangs the chair on the floor instead, and couldn't keep a beat other than his pulse...
but, much like this notional orchestra, discord and total cacophony have been heard on our shores before, and there's many variations of the 'song' of national existence, and ours is always changing. People just get unhappy when it starts sounding heavily like someone else's 'song', or 'anthem'. So, that's why it's really important that the conductor keep reading off the correct 'sheet music', to keep everyone in tune and in time as much as is humanly possible. 'Government' implies 'to control, or govern', as with an engine governor that prevents it from spinning too fast. If you were to think of our population in terms of
a volume of air, too much air into the 'engine' would be just as bad as not enough air. If the 'valves' stick, you end up with an engine that runs rough, and develops little power, and may not run at all. While the dynamics of human existence and population don't equate to the inner workings of a car engine, much is to be learned, I believe, from the observation of other systems and how lessons taken from such learning might then be applied to other problems, in this case illegal immigration. Bottom line, a balance has to be maintained, and periodically certain things need to be checked. If that economic 'oil' gets too low, or too thin,
that can wreck things, too. A good mechanic, or a good conductor, develops or has a trained ear for problems, and acts on realization that there is a problem. Listening is indeed sometimes more important than speaking. I keep hearing a grinding sound...and it concerns me...but, maybe it's just my imagination. Anyway, back to immigration.

Tolerating illegal immigration is not a universal panacea, there's no magic spells buried under our borderlines that transform people into honest, upstanding citizens with a full understanding and respect for the law upon entry, nor are they immediately blessed with a command of our native language, nor are they somehow guaranteed to leave their social problems behind them as they move. Things that are accepted practices in one country tend not to be accepted in others, and cultural frictions can cause major problems. We don't eat cats and dogs, but in some countries, dog is what's for dinner, with a calico appetizer. That's just one example, of many.

It's become a smaller world with 6.6 billion people in it, and with the prevalence and ease of modern travel, it stands to reason that our culture is getting commingled with that of other nations, sometimes in beneficial ways, sometimes not, and you also start getting into kind of 'future shock'-y type themes where basically it's just too much change for people to handle normally.
We live in 'interesting times', as the ancient chinese curse would have it, and there's a lot of problems in the world. Why it's necessarily up to the United States to solve all of these by opening our homes and wallets to neverending waves of newcomers is questionable, suffice it to say that Congress and this administration are quite in favor of an 'open door' type policy, whereas many citizens are not in favor of it. It especially becomes interesting when you start talking wages. America's streets aren't paved with gold, they're paved with asphalt, made no doubt in part from imported petroleum, and these mean imported streets don't hold the same promise they were once attributed to definitely not without something resembling an education, not with mounting debt, infrastructure overload, concerns over water table levels, and all of the things such as healthcare system failure due to over-demand by people with no money to pay for services.

Nor is this problem confined to the United States. Europe has its' own cross to bear in terms of influx from both legal and illegal immigration, and one can only wonder what the global picture will look like as the population numbers climb, some theorize 7 billion by 2010, 8 billion by 2020, some higher, some lower, but suffice it to say they're not making any more land, nor are the natural resources necessary to support such population increases being increased, let alone for the people already walking the earth, some 2 billion of which are already estimated to be living in 'dollar a day' poverty.

Some of it is hyperbole, and there's some common-sense answers too that should/could/but are not being implemented,
and religion plays a part in this, too. When your religious institution of choice is screaming 'go forth and multiply' at you,OR more sinister things, even in the face of poverty, a lot of people go along with the herd, giving birth to still more people with neither pot, window, nor other discernible path toward a better future.

I think the answer is schools. The more people that go to school, and get some vague inkling of the way things are going, the less pressure there'll be to 'bend the laws, just this once, aw, look at that FACE!' kind of stuff. The problems need to be addressed in the home countries that people hail from, at least China 'gets it', they've passed their 1-child laws, to good effect, they're now becoming somewhat prosperous, but globally the numbers are barely slowing, and it's going to take some sober and realistic thinking to really figure this one out fully.

I don't support illegal immigration, unless they start doing a '6 months and you're outta here' kind of thing. But, even that minimal level of leniency still opens the door for future trouble, they had this idea of Ellis Island centers, that sort of sounds promising, but it's still just a band-aid.

There's supposed to be over 200 countries in the world. If each country pitched in a milion bucks, that'd be 200 million bucks. You take that money, and you start divvying it around, not the same country every year, but every country classified as '3rd world' gets a shot at it, and use the money to build schools, hospitals, and farms, (do the first one right and the second two just might take care of themselves), and long-term there'd be less interest in migrating under any circumstances to the US or elsewhere, because they'd be making a go of it for themselves.
But, for any of that to work, first people have to stop shooting each other, or their own people, and 'world peace' is something people have been wishing and praying for at the holidays for decades, if not centuries. Global understanding is another one of those slogans you read off the back of a UN postcard or something, but in reality, people have their differences, their conflicts of interest and physical conflicts, and sometimes the best thing YOU can do is just stay the hell out of it.

Now, Bush spoke out saying that he didn't like isolationism. And, while no man nor country is an island, Australia comes pretty damn close. But, even Australia's been visited by the illegal alien grinch, and there've been frictions with the muslim newcomers and the regular citizens, culture clashes cause problems, slow down the economy, and spread trouble. And, culture's definitely a factor in the immigration debate, and a great reason to insist that immigration only be done legally, and under the right circumstances. If you're emigrating in good faith to our country, for example, it implies that you're giving up one country and adopting another, its' ways, its' morals, its' language, and not just intending to carry on 100% as you did at home. A question to ask is, 'are we READY to have 10 million mongolians move in'? What's the neighbors reaction going to be when a former Mongol tribesman or something decides to take down a horse for the meat in his front yard? We're accustomed to Safeway, some are still accustomed to the Old Ways.

Maybe we ARE too soft in some ways, and we need to 'buck up' etc. But also, maybe we've advanced in ways that many countries just haven't really quite followed for cultural or economic reasons, and suddenly thrusting them into the 21st century american world is just a quick trip to the jailhouse for them. There's a dream-buster, for you. And, that's also part of what the immigration process should be about, education and familiarization. Now, given, most countries around the world probably wouldn't eat your horse, or your dog, but those are just some illustrations of potential problems. Some cultures like to settle their differences mano y mano, tribal wars, etc, burning each other out of their houses or whatever. In america, we imprisoned the mobsters. At any rate, it's a tremendous transition for someone from the relative wilderness coming to america, and while we should try VERY hard to welcome our guests, at the same time I think it's important to do so with our eyes open, and endeavor to learn more about exactly WHO Congress has 'invited over for dinner' as it were. We need much-improved border and immigration policies, and kind, but FIRM enforcement behind those policies. Also, with that, better aid programs that focus FIRST on schools and less on just being blanket handouts. 'Give a man a fish...' etc. Free money does nothing so much as it engenders dependency, and that's not the idea either, nor is immigration without regulation. It's the government's job, literally, to secure our borders, and if they determine that they basically no longer have any control over the immigration process, well then it's time for them to get on top of the situation, somehow, and that really does start at our borders.
Mexico wants in, EVERYBODY wants in, it's america, the Big Amusement Park, Land Of Opportunity etc. Well, sure, but WHAT kind of opportunity, exactly...and that needs to be laid out in black-and-white, and again, enforced as the need arises.
With the advent and proliferation of gangs, more emphasis needs to be placed on public safety issues over the more liberal calls to be basically blind in our immigration policy.

Then, there's the issue of foreign influence: There's several countries around the world that LOVE america's immigration policy, or lack of it, as it represents an 'opportunity' that probably wouldn't be palatable to most people if they sat down and thought about it, the 'opportunity' to undermine what a lot of people have worked in some cases their entire lives to build. 'War' can take many forms, and calling it 'trade' doesn't make the results any more palatable, especially if you or your family/friends are on the recieving end. That's part of what the whole 9/11 story was about, and what a Brave New World that's opened up...

Anyway, without writing an entire book on the subject, which is probably quite possible, but my arm hurts, suffice it to say that we need to be really enlightened to the potential negatives and weigh them carefully against the percieved positives of having a million people a year enter our country on a one-way trip. Maybe a better approach to helping the world would be by encouraging other countries to help themselves instead of having them move in en masse. 6.6 billion, and counting...

Answer 2

I worked Social Services Health for some time. Our benefit system is in trouble. And the uncontrolled mass coming has really added problems. I have always said here we can not help others at the cost of the people here. Hurt to help is just not right. Our biggest concern should be for the people here first. When they are taken care of than reach out.

No Amnesty. Secure the Borders.

Answer 3

You are so right!!! In MY state, hospitals are closing, e.r.'s are closing, and doctors and nurses are refusing to work in the e.r.'s because of all the ILLEGALS that come through there and do NOT pay their bills!!!

IGNORE these pro-illegals on here, they wouldn't know the TRUTH if it slapped them upside the head!!!! You can show them irrefutable PROOF, and they will STILL not believe it!!!! And yet they are always WHINING about, "Show me proof"!!!

Answer 4

Healthcare and our economy is very affected by the illegal aliens comming into the U.S. I have psted the resource links. None of these are spoof sites or blogging pages. Bottom line is we need to get it under control or we will be out on our butts when we need emergency healthcare.

Say what you want to believe, our system is drained and maxxed out due to illegals.

Answer 5

anybody who works in health care sees how the illegals effect the rising cost of health care. and Mendi8a, you are as ignorant as they come, anyone who uses the health care system and then doesn't pay the bill drives up the cost of health care

Answer 6

Hmmm, interesting articles....Thanks for the link....

There is no question we need immigration reform and secure borders....We truly should have addressed this problem many years ago....Now it is out of control and not an easy fix.....

Answer 7

Good look at finding honesty in the community that supports fraud... welfare fraud, social security fraud, and the ilk... you are asking people who are willing to lie cheat and steal to get here and stay here to be honest... not likely....

Answer 8

We all know it's true. Plenty of reports. Another case of we don't want to hear it. Sickening.

Answer 9

If you are a native Californian? Then forget it!!! You'r are an American citizen!!

Answer 10

links can't always prove stuff...

Websites are created BY Man, and each Man has a different point of view...

I would suggest looking at real charts from books and economists to find The TRUTH.... NOt myths...

Answer 11

you say there is no question that they lead to the closing of hospitals, I would say YES THERE IS, dont blame healthcare problems on immigrants!