OK fellow atheists...?

Question

I'm about to give up. I have just officially realized you can not reason with a true believer because it is not so much that they are brainwashed--a state which they can recover from with help, but they are in fact really, really, simple. -- And there is NO help for that, all the reasoning in the world will not help expand their minds because some people's minds are just not wired for deep philosophical thought and reasoning out contradictions.
I am throwing in the towel.

Do you think you should give up too?

there's my question jerk.

hmm. well, maybe I'll keep trying just to plant the seeds of thought that one day it will grow with age and wisdom for some. I think you guys have made good arguments to just keep at it.

Answer 1

Yes, you have learned. You cannot have a rational intelligent logical discussion with someone when they don't believe in rational intelligent logical discussion. There are no facts they can possibly counter with, so they can never win such an argument.
Arguing with a deeply religious person is about as useful as arguing with a chimpanzee. Which is really just more evidence that some of us are still pretty closely related to the apes.

Answer 2

I agree...and disagree. You're right that most of the believers we see here simply aren't deep enough ("wired for...") to understand the flaws in their reasoning. You're certainly not going to convince them, no matter how well-reasoned your argument and poorly reasoned theirs. As E.O. Wilson described it, it's like shooting steel-jacketed bullets through a fog.

If by "give up" you mean "stop expecting that your arguments are going to change people's minds", then yes, you should give up. People simply don't change their minds.

But I don't think that means that we should stop pointing out the flaws in the believers' arguments. I'll bet that like me, you were once a believer, right? Almost all American atheists were Christians earlier in life. I stopped believing in part because I saw all of these good arguments against belief, and didn't see any good arguments in favor of belief. I can't say that any one argument suddenly made me realize the folly of my ways, but over time, cumulatively, the arguments did make fertile ground for my eventual understanding of the situation. I bet that the same thing is happening here - that there are people young enough to still be developing their reasoning and emotional sense of the whole "god" thing, and that good solid calm arguments can still persuade them gradually over time.

Answer 3

Well, this world needs all the fighters (for rationalism) it can get, but on the other hand it is very difficult to convince these people. Some of them do get converted (I've met a few ex-fundie atheists), but then again, I don't like to be pressured into being converted then do I?

I think it's fine that you're surrendering (maybe a little dissapointing though) but no, I wil not stop, and I hope that few people do.

Answer 4

I hope that you are playing "the devil's advocate" on this question for it seems like a rather transparent question and does not merit a response to contradict it. I can only say that being able to think philosophically and to reason is within the grasp of many believers of a God being. Perhaps you should speak with people who can reason things on a higher level than what you have encountered.

Answer 5

I can't say I blame you.

Sometime I feel it would be easier to teach an iguana algebra than to impart reason into the thought processes of some fundamentalists.

It is not that they CAN'T use reason, but rather that there is a brick wall of unreason placed mortor and brick by their pastors and parents (and society in general, unfortunately).

That being said, every once is a while some theists do "see the light", though they tend to be moderates to begin with. I've had a few former fundies email me and it is nice to get through every once in a while.

What do they say, even batting .200 can get you into the majors?

Answer 6

You cannot be a deep believer and be capable of logic. It's that simple. They all have this deep hole in their being, this empty spot in their life, and only by staying stupid can they ignore it's there. It's the natural state of man to be atheistic, and they'd deny it, but trust me, they don't sleep at night. They know deep down that atheists are right and they're wrong. So they have to keep screaming what they believe lest they realize they're missing out on understanding the universe as it really is.

Answer 7

Gave up LONG LONG time ago.
"true believer's" final argument to anything is "you have to have faith"
Which can be used to prove anything!
For example -- if you don't give me 100$ every day -- you will go to hell. Why? You just have to have faith!
No where do i find some people simple enough to buy into it?

P.S.
There is a good quote:
"I cannot continue with the argument -- my opponent is delusional"

Answer 8

I think it's more just that it can be very scary to let go of what you believe in, even just to debate it.

Although, as Aristotle said, "The mark of an educated mind is the ability to entertain an idea without accepting it."

Answer 9

I tend to agree with you. My only real "problem" is with their attack on science. I think that is a real a pressing problem. If you can get anything out of this, it must be a better understanding of the blind faith and ignorance you up against. Additionally I do end up looking up some interesting things.
Note: The post did say fellow atheist....or was someone not paying attention?

Answer 10

Already threw in the towel on that one. Just here defending my own beliefs now.

Besides, I've decided I don't want them to stop believing. Apparently it's the only thing keeping them from running amok and killing/stealing/raping/pillaging. Cause ya know....that's what we atheists do (<---sarcasm goes here)