Founding Fathers and the Constitution , Resolved?

Question

Lots of discussion , but not the law as signed by President John Adams. Comments?

"The government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion.”
THOSE WORDS, PENNED IN ARTICLE 11 of the 1797 Treaty of Tripoli, are as succinct a statement as we have from the Founding Fathers on the role of religion in our government. Their authorship is ascribed variously to George Washington, under whom the treaty was negotiated, or to John Adams, under whom it took effect, or sometimes to Joel Barlow, U.S. consul to Algiers, friend of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine, and himself no stranger to the religious ferment of the era, having served as a chaplain in the Revolutionary Army. But the validity of the document transcends its authorship for a simple reason: it was ratified. It was debated in the U.S. Senate and signed into law by President Adams without a breath of controversy or complaint concerning its secular language, and so stands to this day.

Source 1797 Treaty Of Tripoli

To those who have used quotes. The law still stands
To those who use the original reason for the law to deny it, still in effect.
If you would deny it's legality, it has never been rescinded. It stands.
The law has been ignored, abused and dis regarded, it makes it no less a law.
We are still a 'nation of the people; not of the Christian people, THE PEOPLE! and as much as some of you would not have it so, IT IS. The law stands! Vote your religion at the ballot box, don't cram it down others throaths.

Answer 1

Well done, I commend you sir, you read. I agree 110% with you and can only illuminate on the earlier convictions of our founding fathers, Ben Franklin. Our first real Philosopher wrote many essays on the subject in fact. He was a financial benefactor of all the Churches in his area but firmly believed they had no place in Government or outside of the church for that matter. Our founders were rational.

Have you read The Salem Frigate by John Jennings? I recommend it, it covers Tripoli, it is fascinating.

Answer 2

Thanks for a thought provoking post, I knew a little bit about the First Barbary War, but not much about what led to it.

For futher details, check out the first source below. It is a transliteration of the original, Arabic version of this treaty.

The second link takes you to an overall "Barbary Treaties" page, which is a hoot to read through.

Where Article 11 is concerned, it's interesting to note that the original Arabic treaty had, where we would expect Article 11 to be, an extremely garbled letter from the pasha of Tripoli to the pasha of Tunis, basically advising him to distinguish Americans from the "Christian nations."

Why was this discussed? We needed to maintain the fig leaf of distinction between "other Christian nations" and ourselves, and the pasha needed some sop to his reputation among his fellow pirate cheiftains.

It certainly seems this sort of thing was discussed between Agent Barlow and the pasha, given the pasha's rambling letter that Article 11 is suppose to represent.

But this is really a side issue. Your thesis is concerned with the version ratified by Congress in June 1797, and this English version, unlike the Arabic, makes an explicit reference to religion and the U.S. government.

"ARTICLE 11.
As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..." et al.

I note that it pays to be careful about diplomatic language:

Remember, this was before the Civil War. "The Government of the United States..." is a fairly explicit reference to the federal government. Not the individual states. Back then, you were a Virginian, or a Vermonter, before you were a citizen of the US.

Those folks were dead serious about states rights. Before the 1860's, we said, when talking of the USA, "The United States are..." After the Civil War, though, folks said what we say today - "The United States is..." Singular.

I suspect that's why it breezed through Congress.

If so, this was a neat dodge; the concept of a federal system of autonomous states would have blown right past the pasha's jeweled turban like a sirocco breeze, and none of the Congress, evidently, gave a hoot.

We modern folk, of course, do identify "government" as proceeding logically from the Federal level... all the way down.

It's interesting that local governments have to spar now with the ACLU over religious installations. That would have been viewed as rank tyranny by the ordinary folk of ca. 1800 - they would have seen it as an intolerable usurpation of their rights by a far off national seat.

Well, the country has changed since then. We're citizens of the USA first, our state, maybe second. Reinstating federalism would inhibit Washington's imperial temptations globally, but the character of the country would have to change, much as it did during the Civil War.

In any event, those are my views, but there is one thing I believe you are wrong about.

"..and so stands to this day."

Not so. The illustrious pasha of Tripoli broke the treaty in 1801. (Perhaps he felt he had to keep up with the other pirates?) We sent in a naval squadron in 1805 (I think) with a company of Marines led by a Mr. William Eaton.

How did we do? Ever hear the Marine Hymn? "...to the shores of Tripoli..." Land. March. Bang.

The pasha signed a second treaty in 1805. Neither Article 11, nor anything like it, was in this version.

Answer 3

The 1783 treaty with Great Britain ending the Revolutionary War begins, "In the name of the Most Holy and Undivided Trinity..."


And the US government took out this clause when the treaty was re-did, thus showing it was a political stand of Adams and not the true opinion of the Government
The Treaty was broken in 1801 by the Pasha of Tripoli and renegotiated in 1805 after the First Barbary War, at which time Article 11 was removed.


And by looking at photo copies of actual copies, it appears there were additions made from the orginal treaty as radified from the orginal text
http://www.nobeliefs.com/document.htm

Article XI of the Treaty historically has been used to avert Muslim holy war on the USA, thus saving American lives, and the US has a big history of lying on treaties, just look at what they did to the American Indians with all of thier treaties, If every word of every treaty the US did was true, then the Indians would own most of many states not a few poor pieces of land.

And in the end, one has to look at other more obvious proof, the Ten Commandents in the Supreme court building, that many areas required a person to be Christian to hold public office, that "in God we Trust " is printed on our money, Congress itself starts in prayer, and the list of who invovled the Church was. And of course our laws come and are formed from many sourses, Magna Carta, English Commom Law, and even perhaps the Cherokee Indian early form of Government.

It is a combination of many things, but Christian morality is also obvious in it. And of course the many things we used had some Christain base in them also.

Answer 4

Yes, I get annoyed also at the Christians that keep claiming the sacred "blessing of the founding fathers". for trying to get their beliefs enshrined in law.

A good portion of the founding fathers were Deists, a belief in God, but not attached to any Religion. That's how they were able to create a constitution with Freedom of Religion. No State religion, with people able to worship in any manner they choose. Think and of todays Fundies could write that? Course most of the atheists on this Q&A board wouldn't be able to write that in either...

Under God, in the pledge of allegience was shoved in in the 50's, to show we were oppose to Godless Commies.

Sigh...

Answer 5

You have any idea how many times this has been posted - and outright ignored by those who continue to claim that the U.S. government and the nation are founded on Christian principles.

It's a suvival technique - ignore anything that poses any sort of threat, regardless of how truthful it is.

Answer 6

A few quotes collected from various sources:

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this - that it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." - John Quincy Adams
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"The Bible is the cornerstone of liberty. A student's perusal of the sacred volume will make him a better citizen, a better father, a better husband." - Thomas Jefferson
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"The Bible is the rock on which our Republic rests." - Andrew Jackson
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"In my view, the Christian religion is the most important and one of the first things in which all children, under a free government, ought to be instructed." - Noah Webster
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"We have staked the future of American civilization upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God." - James Madison
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"He who shall introduce into public affairs the principles of Christianity will change the face of the world." - Benjamin Franklin
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"It can not be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded, not by religionists, but by Christians, not on religions but on the gospel of Jesus Christ." - Patrick Henry
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"The religion which has introduced civil liberty is the religion of Christ and His apostles...to this we owe our free constitutions of government." - Noah Webster
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"Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed the conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?" - Thomas Jefferson
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"Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey his will, to be grateful for his benefits, and humbly implore His protection and favor." - George Washington
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"Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited.... What a utopia, what a paradise would this region be." - John Adams
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"Our constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
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The average age of the world's great civilizations
has been 200 years. These nations have
progressed through this sequence:
from bondage to spiritual faith
from spiritual faith to great courage
from courage to liberty
from liberty to abundance
from abundance to selfishness
from selfishness to complacency
from complacency to apathy
from apathy to dependency
from dependency back to bondage."
-- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1742-1813)

Answer 7

My belief in the future of this nation is always strengthened when I read posts like this.

An active citizenry ensures that the current abuses by our Adminstration will not last much longer...

Good for you...posting factual information on here :-)

Answer 8

Its worked all these years. It should be left as it is. Anyone with brains can see that with changes in the constitution that have been made the nation has declined in morals. If we change it anymore what can we expect then?

Answer 9

Amen! Well stated, and well documented. Thank you for the find and the conclusion.

Answer 10

I wish I could meet our founding fathers