Excluding of the Bible, what evidence supports the claim that Christ saves us from our sins and Hell?

Question

Please only state verifiable evidence. Miricles do not count as evidence and people having visions of angels, the devil, and the Virgin Mary do count as evidence. Prophecy does not count as evidence. Hearing the voice of God does not count as evidence.

Answer 1

Your question indicates that you have decided not to accept any fact-claims that could possibly constitute evidence. Having dismissed all evidence as not credible, it is a foregone conclusion that the remaining fact-claims will result in re-enforcing your inclination to dismiss the claims of the gospel. Your question might better be understood in the context of a court case, rather than reproduceable test-tube experiments.

'Evidence' is a question that deserves some examination. There are people that still refuse to believe 'evidence' that the WTC was attacked by terrorists (an insult to us New Yorkers).

Ultimately, the philosopher, René Descartes, made the logical proof that there is no such thing as 'Evidence' of anything, other than one's own existance. 'I think, therefore I am' is the only absolure evidence that exists.

Once you fully understand that any other 'evidence' can be questioned, you then realize that the question boils down to a more complicated issue. Each person must make personal evaluations of the amount of collaborating fact-claims, compared to the collection of contradicting fact-claims. In the end, each person makes a decision about which fact-claims that they choose to believe. That is true of every element of our waking life.

The bible is the only written text that contains the claim that Jesus was the messiah (Christ) that was prophesized in the Jewish scriptures. There are a few other historic indications of Jesus' existance, but none on these offer details of the the claims of the gospel (good news) that God came to earth and offered the free gift of salvation.

That said, there is not even 'evidence' per se that the concepts of sin, or either good / bad or right / wrong actually exist. In fact, without an actual creator and ultimate Judge, these concepts don't actually exist. They can only be the personal opinions of the person or group that is making the right / wrong claim. Their concept of god / bad is no more correct or valid than any other single person's opinion. Unless there is a Judge after death, good and bad is only a social term. It is the idea of what one mob of people will impose or force upon other people.

As such, an athiest might say that all existance was an accident, that there is no existance beyond death, and that all existance is the result of arbitrary physical interactions. Since nothing matters beyond what I personally think and feel about it, there is nothing good or right about anything in the universe. If I nothing matters, then anything goes and existance is the survival of the preferences of the strongest, or the failures of the weakest.

However, the scientific approach to such a question involves suspending disbelief in the search of universally-true facts. The scientific method is to create a theory that something is true, then to search for any evidence that can disprove the theory. If the fact-claims and collected data seems to support the theory, with no significant contradictory evidence, the theory gradually begins to be accepted as describing something that actually is universally true.

To evaluate the fact-claims in the bible, including those regarding salvation, you must start by sincerely assuming that the fact-claims are indeed true. With that perspective, assemble the facts and compare them with contradictory claims. Over time, you will become aware of, and comfortable with, a broad enough the range of the claims. As you do, you will eventually determine which pile of evidence is more credible and more probably true.

However, you should not do it in a vacumn, but rather realize that it is either this explaination or another. You must evaluate it's believability against the believability of that alternative explainations.

As a scientist, I took that approach and became convinced that the evidence supporting the claims was overwhelmingly in favor of the bible being true. If you want to draw a valid conclusion, you really have no good option other than to follow a similar process and decide what you are willing to believe. I now believe that good and bad do exist, therefore sin and judgement exists and a creator / Judge also exists. That lead me, personally, to believe that the evidence claimed in the bible that judgement will happen and that I can never un-do the bad thing that disqualify me from being judged worthy of heaven. I realized that I did need some outside source to qualify me, since no one could ever qualify themselves as without fault and deserving of reward rather than punishment.

Perhaps you will come to a different conclusion. That is the beauty of free will. However, it is intelectually dishonest to sumarily dismissing the complex and overwhelming testimonies of hundreds of people over thousands of years, and the non-biblical historical evidences that validate many of the facts of the bible. If you determine that these claims are false and fakes, then you must also come to an explaination about how these claims were made in the forst place, and why they were so widely accepted as true by the contemporaries of the day who could also best witness and judge their validity.

If you really understand in whole the painstaking efforts for historical accuarcy of the writers of the bible, you will at least be overwhelmed that so many people gave their lives to live by and profess what they observed and claimed as true facts. Take the scientific approach to examining all of the fact claims regarding our creation, existance and eternal future (or lack thereof). The question is worth the effort of examination.


Best wishes !

Answer 2

Legal evidence. If the accounts of Jesus and his miricles can be substantiated along with his lineage, diputing salvation would be futile. The good news(no pun intended) is that many scholars have verified the eyewitness accounts. In addition , famed persons such as Simon Greenleaf who is considered to be THE leading authority on legal evidences supports the account. Support the accounts , support the statements. This does of course require using the Bible to a great extent(but not only the bible)to get your answer. Your argument is flawed though, because you need the Bible to ask your original question . If your saying how would we know if were saved without the Bible that is also flawed, because salvation must be expressed in some form , and human writting was chosen. Outside of the actual words,what else would really communicate that except, writting, seeing and hearing. Nice try.

Answer 3

The Bible is not evidence in the empirical state - it is only anecdotal at best.

If I write that I have seen god and someone else believes me, then this belief spreads, at no stage was the anecdotal evidence ever tested.

You have hit the nail on the head (or hand, ha ha) and made the realisation that never has there been ANY empirical evidence of the events that eventually turned into christianity.

In the same way, santa claus has never been proved and can never be disproved either - what do you believe?

Answer 4

he doesn't. He came on earth, basically to SHOW the world how to find God again. He's still around, just not in the physical body. Evidence? um... seeing as Hell is generally thought to be south and Heaven north or something, how could that be? when science has proved there to be nothing but space, stars, and planets outside of earth? I think the whole "saving us from our sins" means showing us how to escape from this hellhole we call life on Earth. Yeah, Hell= Earth, in my opinion. There's so much suffering it's like, how could it be anything other than that?

Answer 5

So if none of that is evidence then you wont believe anything and so why should I answer your question.
Your gonna have to ask God if you want to know, because the Bible belongs to God. He just let us borrow it for a while.
So what would you like to hear, its all a bunch of crap. I can tell you that if thats what you want to hear, but its not going to change the truth......

Answer 6

LOL Well when you eliminate everything relevant and say it "does not count as evidence"... It makes it real easy to win a debate, doesn't it? LOL

Who are you to say none of that stuff counts as evidence? Stick it in your left ear.

Obviously there IS enough evidence for the MAJORITY of people to have faith of one sort or another. What's your excuse?

Answer 7

Yes no proof for someone "dying for YOUR sins". They made up the lie that Jesus died on the cross then they have to find some sort of significance behind WHY he died. Some pagan came along and said "to erase our sins" because that is the thing we are afraid of the most in terms of the life hereafter.

It is strange!!!!

Can't God just forgive us and not have to kill Jesus?

Would a 'Just' God, a 'Fair' God, a 'Loving' God -- punish Jesus for the sins of the people that he called to follow him?

What happens to people who died before Jesus came?

What happens to those who never hear this message (including children who are born sinful supposidly)?

That is why we say that you will be brought back to life and be rewarded/punshed by your deeds/actions. We follow both proof and faith. The proof of that is the changes in seasons. The sprouting of followers during spring time..begining of life (youth), The energy of sun given to all creatures during summer(young adult), the falling of leaves/changes in colors of trees (middle aged), finally the trees and plants dying during winter (old age/death).

The Quran repeatedly tells us that those who believe and do righteous deeds will be greatly rewarded in the afterlife, while those who disbelieve and do bad deeds will be severely punished.

Belief in life after death gives meaning to our life, for it tells us that this life is only a test and preparation for an eternal life. Furthermore, we know that in the afterlife we will receive justice for all the wrongs we suffer here. It may seem that the sinful and corrupt are often happier or wealthier than the righteous, but that is only for a short time. In the afterlife they will get their due.

Belief in life after death encourages a person to lead a good life on earth, since he knows the fate that awaits him if he ignores the commands and warnings of Allah given in the Qur’an. In fact, belief in the afterlife is the strongest incentive for a person to lead a life of virtue here. The real road to a peaceful society can be paved only if people believe in an afterlife.

Answer 8

Who made you the boss of evidence. Wikipedia?

The word of God is all you need.

If you want to verify, read the bible and become saved yourself, you will then be the evidence you so desperately seek, since you don't recognize the word.

Answer 9

Nada. Zip. Zero. Outside of Biblical quotations, traditions, and wishful thinking, there is no evidence of such things. I can't imagine what would be evidence of it, to tell you the truth. Perhaps a guided tour...

Answer 10

Nobody can save us except ourselves. We are responsible for our own actions and the laws of karma are inescapable.

The idea that salvation can only be obtained from an outside source is one of the great deceptions in history and merely served to lend power and control to the Church.

Your actions, thoughts and behaviours will determine your future experience. Nobody is responsible for your salvation but you.

My advice, Love thy neighbor as thyself.