A Question of free will?

Question

Indeed, while they may be saying "free will," they are fanatically following a book purportedly written by "God" that says,

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:17)

Does this sound even remotely to intelligent people that God gave anybody "free will?"

Answer 1

Yes, you can refuse to do it.

Answer 2

We do have free will, because we can freely choose to follow the advice in Romans 13:17 or choose to reject it, and do as we please.

Paul is teaching the people that even though they are Christians, and no longer under the old religious law, they better pay attention to existing civil and criminal laws, or the Romans will fine them, kill them, or put them in prison.

What he says is still true today ... a simple fact of life.

We are all subject to the laws of the government of our country. It's just common sense.

Exactly how is this fanatical, and why do you have a problem with it?

Answer 3

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities" - Yes I agree every one is under the authority of God...

In Bhagavad Gita As It is 7.21 purport, it is stated to the extent that not even a blade of Grass moves without the sanction of God...
But at the same place it is also said that the same God fulfills every ones Desires...

So freedom to desire is there and fulfillment of desire is also there. This is the meaning of the little independence or Free will.. This is very minute but it is still there....

This minute freewill is again under of Authority of God himself. He does not create us as slaves ...so this freewill is also given under the Authority of God...

Just as Government give all the Laws (and volumes of them) and then gives Independence to the citizen to live in the society....
But with all those laws is there Freedom?
Answer is still Yes, One is still free to go against Government laws... But if the act is not justified then the person will be punished ...

It is also said that the more pure, the more God serving you become the more this independence is given...

Answer 4

Free will, you got to understand its meaning. The ability to do anything you wish, follow anything you want. Do you really believe God gave everyone 'free will'? Otherwise why is man still following laws and rules everywhere? Indeed the question posed sounds intelligent about the fact of whether God gave 'free will' to anybody, gives us something to ponder about.

Answer 5

Actually I think this verse is not referring to free will.

In Romans 13, Paul is talking about respecting and submitting to a governing authority, be it the government, laws, teachers, parents. Further in verse 6, it also says to pay our taxes.

Answer 6

I believe we have free will. How convenient that a book written by the authorities says that God says you have to obey the authorities. That's why I don't believe in organized religion.

Answer 7

Let me ask you this, do you believe in obeying the laws of your country? Doesn't that mean, by your logic, that you don't believe in the concept of free will?
If you believe in God, the fact that you can question his mandates is evidence enough of free will. Have you ever heard the old adage, "if you love something let it go free. If it comes back, it's yours; if not, then it never was"? That's the way free will works. If we choose to submit our will to God's will, we demonstrate our focus in life. The relinquishing of our will is a way for us to show our commitment to God and his will for us.

Answer 8

'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.

If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.

For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.

If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.

Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.

So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.

Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.

So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.

The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.

So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:

1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.

2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.

3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."

Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.

It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.

They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.

However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.

Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.

Answer 9

NO it means the 2000 and 2004 election were handled by God.

Thank God!

Answer 10

'free will' is not a coherent concept anyway. If you're going to believe in things that make no sense, why stop there?

Answer 11

Okay, yes, he tells you to do that, and you should obey. BUT, you still have the FREE WILL to obey or not!