Question for atheists...?

Question

Is it just me, or do you get incensed at how inane and incapable of basic logical thought some of the theists here are?

I swear, sometimes I just wish I could blow their brains out -- I'm not making a threat, and I don't mean permanently, mind you; just strike them dead for maybe five minutes or so, then revive them and go, "THERE, you SEE?!?! NO GOD, NO SOULS, NO AFTERLIFE!!! You're MEAT, UNDERSTAND?!?! NOW SHUT THE F*CK UP UNTIL YOU KNOW WHAT THE HELL YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!!!!!"

Probably wouldn't make any difference anyhow; in another thread of mine they demonstrated that the biblegod himself could come down from heaven and tell them their bible was a fraud, and they'd still insist that they knew better....

Dunno...is there some way of requiring taking a class in Logic & Debate 101 before allowing folks in here?

Well, I used to think like some of you -- that it didn't do any harm for them to have their little imaginary friends and get together in their clubhouse every Sunday to convince each other of what they didn't know...but as I got older and learned of the political control the church has wielded throughout history, and watch their attempts to impose the rules of their delusional little world on the rest of us, I became more and more convinced that their ignorance and superstition are enemies that must be defeated wherever they are found....

Answer 1

You should live and let live. Believe what you want to believe, let others do the same. I am educated and have an above average IQ(I say that because someone said most Americans are not educated and have below average IQ, thought I'd let you know where I am in that) and I believe there has to be something, not what they teach in church, but something. How else were we created? You can believe in the big bang theory but that doesn't explain what created the bang. Even though the universe is vast and there is so much we have never seen (and probably never will) because space is never ending, how did it get there? Who created the first cell billions and billions of years ago, the cell that led to the creation of what we now know as our universe and all the solar systems etc? There is so much out there and I can believe in evolution as well as the big bang, what I want to know is where it came from, what started it all? If you have the answer to that add it. If not you really have no basis for saying there is nothing bigger than you. You don't have to believe what they teach in church. Most of it is BS anyway, I am sure. But it gives people something to believe in in times of weakness. It keeps some people going and calms their fears. That is a blessing, isn't it? Wouldn't it be nice to have faith in something bigger than you so that you don't have to worry or take the blame for your screw ups in life? That's what they have and use their faith for (some of them and often anyway). They have no idea what happens after we die and neither do you. You say we are meat and that's it. They say we are souls that go to heaven or hell. Some say we are reincarnated. There are so many theories about what happens after we die, I don't have the time or desire to list them all. All I am saying is you are of one opinion and they are of another. It's sad that you harbor so much anger toward religious people. They probably feel sorry for you as well. Every person thinks they have the answer. Every religion thinks they are right. Every Atheist thinks they are right. When in reality no one has any fu*king idea what is going to happen after we die. Not even you.

Just wanted to add that I completely agree with the political hold the (Catholic) church has over the world. It is what made me think as well. That coupled with the fact that they are preaching from documents that are thousands of years old that have been translated thousands of times. Think about that game in elementary where you whisper something in someones ear. By the time it gets to even the tenth person that one thing whispered is so jacked up. Now the texts that make up the bible have been jacked up much worse than the sentence in elementary school, I am sure. I do believe in something bigger than me, I choose to call it God. That doesn't mean I am blind or ignorant. It's just easier to wrap my brain around and maybe just a little lazy. But that's my prerogative.

Answer 2

I agree to certain point. Most, but specially christian believers are incapable of basic logical thought not to speak of debate. Those you should just not care about and let them be ignorants. But for those who can debate and think logical and can actually have a normal conversation on theology you can't just do what you said:

strike them dead for maybe five minutes or so, then revive them and go, "THERE, you SEE?!?! NO GOD, NO SOULS, NO AFTERLIFE!!!

Well, WHAT IF THEY ARE RIGHT? Maybe the best answer would be to strike bouth of you dead and revive after five minutes and see who of you was right. And then see what you would do if you suddenly realised there IS a god, there IS a soul and there IS an afterlife.... And you've just been revived and taken back to earth and it maybe feels like hell after being in some sort of heaven. If YOU where right on the other hand, then you would destroy his life maybe, and maybe yours too, because you then have the absolute certainty that there is nothing beyond death. And it really makes no sense to be born just to grow up and then die. Why bother in the first place beeing born? I think that could drive you to suicide.

I am no atheist, I am more like sort of agnostic whith strong belives in cience, but if I had to choose a religion I think I would go with buddhism.

Answer 3

Never underestimate people's powers of rationalization. If their fear is strong enough they will believe in Gods, churches, Santa Clauses, Easter Bunnies etc.

I heard of an experiment conducted in an American University where electrodes were placed on the subject's head, stimulating the brain area responsible for motion. The researchers would 'force' the subject's head to move from side to side without the subject's will. The findings were incredible: The subject would find this loss of control over his faculties so unnerving that at the scientist's question: "Why is your head moving from left to right?", he chose to ignore the blatantly obvious electrodes hanging from his head and rationalized: "I'm looking for my slippers". People's need to believe in something greater than them may overpower all logic or common sense.

Also, a course in Logic and Debate 101 won't really do anything. Don't overestimate people's power of compartmentalization either. Most priests in my country have had it as a required course in College. I'm sure most of them got an A in it.

Answer 4

Hahaha! Nice to know others get frustrated, too.
I was like the other Xians and brainwashed into complete fear of daring to think any argument not for Xianity(especially when, it made sense-sometimes more sense than an Xian argument)...that it would result in some form of punishment...and that anything bad that happened in your life, at any time, was b/c you had 'sinned' at some point; Anyway, I finally saw reason (it slipped through somehow) so there's always hope
(Btw, if any Xians are watching...it's not so much we feel the need to convert you for no reason, really...it's just that we would like you to be reasonable and quit trying to tell us what is moral, when you're own book contains contradictions about what is moral! If you're argument is that we need Xian morals, I was taught that Egyptians had a working society involving marriage and looking down on murder, as well as having other 'crimes')

Answer 5

That's not what happens to me. I don't mind people having some kind of fairy tale logic. The only problem is that that childish logic is being imposed on all of us, because of the world wide domination of the Christian churches.

I have magical thoughts, too when I think that something could happen in spite of all evidence. But I don't mislead anyone else into manipulation by means of deceitful thinking.

Answer 6

If they well were versed in critical thinking, they wouldn't be believers now would they? So you already know you are starting with people who don't understand how to judge the quality of evidence, or who lack logical skills.

That being the case, emotional arguments are the most likely to win out. You can try rational discourse all day long and it will never penetrate the barrier of logical fallacy and mountains of crap evidence they base their beliefs on, until you first show them other ways of placating their fear of death that lies at the root of their belief system.

Answer 7

LOL those are all good points but I'd say "don't hold your breath".
Though you do get some of them that are willing to pull thier heads out of thier rectal cavities and see the world as it REALLY is from time to time.
I get, on average, one to two emails a day from people looking to leave thier religion and live without superstition and mythology governing thier lives.
That's why I stick around. Every person we show the light of reason and logic to, is a victory for mankind.

Answer 8

what makes you think we don't feel the same way about you???

while I would never wish anyone dead.....It does frustrate me to know end when people are sooooo closed minded about God. God made it sooo easy to understand that even the most innocent child could understand it.

it all boils down to faith. you either believe it or you dont. you take it by faith that you will have your next breath, you take it by faith that the sun will rise in the morning..... why is it so hard for you to accept that there is One God, and he did make the heavens and the earth.....and he did make you.

It would be a real shame for you to die and find out that your way of thinking got you sent to hell.

Answer 9

There are some subtleties at work here that seem to be escaping the notice of most people. They have to do with the nature of 'belief'.

A rational person might say "I believe in the Big Bang." A religious person might say "I believe in creation, as described in Genesis." But these statements are not even remotely similar, with respect to what is meant by the word 'believe'.

For the rational person, the statement of 'belief' in the Big Bang means that they understand that the concept provides a scientifically and mathematically consistent explanation, congruent with the evidence, which accounts for the evolution of the universe from a fraction of a second after the initiating event, up until the present. When the 'inflationary model' came to the fore, rational people said "Well, good... that clears up a few questions and makes things even more coherent." NOBODY threw up their arms and wailed "Oh, no... oh, no... ain't so... ain't so... the Big Bang is the inerrant truth... not this ridiculous, atheistic 'inflationary' model."

See... when we say "I believe in the Big Bang", we don't really mean the same thing as the religious person means when he says "I believe in creation, as described in Genesis," or "I believe in God." Our 'belief' in the Big Bang (or anything else) isn't really a 'belief'... it is more properly a 'paradigm'... a useful way of looking at something, or thinking about something. If additional information is uncovered that adds to the conceptual model, that is a good thing... not a disaster. If part of the conceptual model is discovered to be incorrect, and must be tossed in the trash and replaced with something completely different... that is also a good thing... not the end of the world as we know it. And often, no matter how highly confident we may be of the accuracy or completeness of a particular paradigm, we may have reason to apply a DIFFERENT paradigm to the same thing, in an effort to tease out new insights; for example, we might want to contemplate the potential implications of a change to a theory from the perspective of the Tao Te Ching, the Gaia hypothesis, or ecological homeostasis. We KNOW that all theories are approximations... and that is OK. We KNOW that we don't have all the answers... and that is OK, too. There is nothing wrong with saying "We don't know... yet; but we're working on it."

But these modes of thinking, perceiving, contemplating and understanding are utterly alien to the 'religious' mind. For the religious mind, a 'belief' is not a paradigm... not a useful way of thinking about something... it is an internalized conviction that one knows the absolute 'truth' pertaining to some aspect of existence and/or fundamental reality. 'Beliefs' are one of the key interpretive component filter of the religious person's 'self-description'... a part of what DEFINES them as a person... the very thing that creates their world-view... an underpinning of their 'subjective reality'. Any attack on one of these internalized 'beliefs' is perceived and interpreted as a vital threat... an attack upon the 'self-description'... and attack on their subjective reality.

And here is the key difference: When there is a change in one of the paradigms dealing with a scientific concept, or a new insight into the workings of the universe, to the 'rational' person, it merely constitutes an interesting new piece of knowledge and understanding. However, if that same new insight, or piece of information (a feature of the universe, for example) seems to threaten a tenet of Christianity, everybody goes to battle stations, goes into 'damage control' mode... for fear that the whole edifice will come crashing down. And, ultimately, it will.

So, when a fundie disparages evolution, for example, it really has nothing to do with a genuine, intellectual dispute regarding scientific details... they are generally scientifically illiterate, anyway. Any 'scientific' arguments that they present are inevitably not even understood... they are just lifted from the pre-packaged lies and misrepresentations that are found on dozens of 'Liars for Jesus' (LFJ) web sites, and parroted. They are in a battle. They are trying to sink science before science sinks them. They are desperate... and science is (mostly, and unfortunately) oblivious to the fact that they are even in a fight, and that somebody is trying to sink them. They are just blithely bopping along, doing what science does... figuring out how nature works.

No... none of this has anything to do with a mere disagreement pertaining to evidence and understanding. It has to do with minds that deal with fundamental issues in an entirely different way. It has to do with a flexible, open-minded, intellectually honest (willing to question and doubt one's own presumptions) curiosity about the universe, contending with a rigid, unyielding world-view that depends from a certainty that certain delusional faith-based (willful ignorance and magical, wishful thinking) 'beliefs' represent the absolute 'truth' of reality.

We might as well be talking to an alien species, from a distant planet.

When the religious enter a forum like this one, they are (generally) NOT seeking new information which might allow them to QUESTION their beliefs more effectively, or might put their beliefs at risk... they are seeking VALIDATION... of their beliefs, and hence, their self-description.

Answer 10

LOL. agreed, many people need to take logic 101, perhaps logic 90 would help a majority of them. debate wouldnt be a bad idea either. for those of you who dont know, in a debate you dont make a point, then put ur fingers in your ears and go "lalalalalala" doesnt work that way.