If there is proof for the divine, but people choose not to believe it, is it really proof?

Question

What other "proofs" are out there that people just refuse to believe? I would think something that was proven would have ample evidence to support it's point of view, enough so that it would be wholeheartedly believed. What other things do we have that we have "proof" of that we just toss aside and ignore as being untrue?

Answer 1

Obviously, if there were proof of the divine, everyone would believe, and there would be no role for faith per se.

It boggles the mind that the religious will talk all day long about how it's all about faith, but then go around trying to prove it nonetheless. They truly are desperate to rationalize their delusions.

Answer 2

The Holocaust.

How can people dispute it? However, the Iranian President, an ex-civil engineer, disputes it. This is a no-brainer to prove happened, yet, belief is now politicized in some countries, and disbelief is acceptable, in some circles.

Issue, with freedom, who can say which group is right or wrong. I know the Holocaust happened. I refuse to engage with debate about it, yet, it is disputed. Lenin said, say a lie often enough and it can become the truth. Confucius said, those who do not protect the meaning of words will soon find themselves enslaved. To me, it is the ongoing battle between good and evil.

Answer 3

I can prove God in two ways, without using Creation and without using the Bible.

1) The existence of evil is proof of God.

We all agree that evil exists – in fact we object to things we call evil (war, poverty, Republicans, liberals, whatever). So, what is evil? Not what are examples of evil (rape, murder, etc…) but what makes something evil? What makes something evil is whether it deviates from some idea of objective good. In other words, there has to be some objective standard of good in order to measure whether something is evil. C. S. Lewis said “how can a man call anything crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line?”. If there is no good, how then can we call anything evil? But there doesn’t seem to be any way to account for an objective standard of good unless there is a God. We ourselves cannot serve as that standard. Even the best of us have lied and stolen at sometime in our lives (deviations from good) so we ourselves cannot be used as a standard for good. So, evil is evidence of good; good is evidence of God; therefore evil is evidence of God.

2) It seems to me that if there is no God then there is also no ultimate justice.

Between the years 1990 and 2000 there were 200,000 murders in the U.S. Approximately 100,000 of those are unsolved (this is from the Census Bureau of 2000). That means that there are potentially 100,000 murderers that have never been brought to justice and most likely may never be. That means that they have committed the perfect crime - they have killed another person and gotten away with it. Does it seem reasonable that someone could live out the rest of their life and never pay for such a crime? Think of the outcry when an innocent child is raped and murdered. We demand justice! But what justice is there for the victim whose murderer is never caught? If there is no ultimate justice, then we can do whatever we like in this world and when this life is over, it’s over – there is no penalty. If God does not exist, then there is no true justice.

Answer 4

We saw the moon was round and yet we called the earth flat.

Just because the proof exists and is plain before us doesn't mean we will acknowledge it.

If we won't accept historical documents about Jesus, for instance, then why would we accept historical documents about anything? But we do.

If we won't accept personal testimony of millions of people of all levels of credibility, education, and walks of life, about Jesus, then why would we ever accept any eyewitness testimony to any event? But we do.

So first we believe what we choose to believe, and after we believe, then we accept evidence that confirms that belief.

If we believe Christ, we accept evidence confirming him.

If we believe there is no Christ, the we reject overwhelming evidence, just because.

But what if we do believe, and yet reject?

James 2
18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do.

19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.


Evidence is in the outcome then. Do the people of God accomplish the things of God? And will you ignore that, too?

What is the outcome of the unbelievers deeds?

What is the outcome of the hater's deeds?

Consider the evidence.

Answer 5

Man is dead in sin. They cannot choose somthing the does have the capabillity of chooseing. People will refuse to beileve that man did not land on the moon. Man is stupid when he does not know what he is talking about, I know nothing about rocket science, so i can't possibly do anything to compell the subject to someone else.

" You really know a subject when you are first able to comunicate it to others" Arostodle

Answer 6

Really? Then could you explain to me why so many people do not believe in Evolution?

There is oodles of proof.

Answer 7

There is no proof so the question is mute.
Tammi Dee

Answer 8

There is NO PROOF. That why we can have faith. God have provided us with evidence for our faith but proof...NO..Jim

Answer 9

all you need is the king james version of the bible and a local newtestament bible believing baptist church

Answer 10

Lacrymations of the blood in the Pouilles at Alberobello (Italy)

Examination of DNA delivers extraordinary results



Images of the Madonna and Jesus shed blood and the scientists say:
"AN EXTRAORDINARY AND AMAZING PHENOMENON"





By Renzo Allegri


Every now and then one reads in the news that some Image of the Madonna is weeping. Sometimes these tears are blood and the news are then much more impressive. The skeptics smile; the ecclesiastical authorities evaluate the event with great prudence, with good reason, and they avoid making definite judgments; science does not get involved, and if it does, it is at the level practiced by amateurs. Then, as time passes, the event becomes less interesting, fades from memory, and is soon forgotten. Only in very rare cases is the event of such importance that it is acknowledged as true and real and is then certified as authentic and of a supernatural origin. An example is the research that was carried out on the "Weeping Madonna of Syracuse." [It was declared authentic and of supernatural origin.]



We will now tell you of a recent similar event, still unknown, which reveals itself to be truly astounding because the first judgment released came from science, science at the highest level, a judgment that opens viewpoints to amazing hypotheses.

The event involves two Sacred Icons that shed tears of blood on two separate occasions. The two Icons belong to Padre Pietro Maria Chiriatti, 59 years old, a priest since 1990, founder of a small Congregation called "The Missionnaries of Our Lady of the Quarry," who lives in a modest dwelling in Alberobello, Puglia, Italy. Padre Pietro tells us:

"It was on the 3 of May 2003, around 6 in the evening, I had gone to my room to
take some medication when I noticed that the Icon which represents the Madonna
with Child, hanging above my prayer kneeler, had spots on its face. Because I
have poor eyesight I touched the Image and felt that it was wet. I called my
fellow members (Confreres) and all of us could see that she was shedding tears."



The phenomenon lasted thirty minutes and was witnessed by other persons whom Padre Pietro had immediately called. This event was recorded on video tape. Padre Pietro wiped the blood with a handkerchief and sent it to a laboratory to be tested.

Approximately one year later, on the 27 May 2004, the phenomenon repeated itself on another Icon of Padre Pietro that represents the Face of Jesus as it appears on the Shroud of Turin. This time it was more than a weeping Icon, it was a bloody sweat. The Face of Jesus was striped by seven streaks of blood that trickled down from the forehead, along the cheeks, over the beard, and running over the picture frame of the Icon. Padre Pietro, frightened, called out to all who were in the house to come and see; he then telephoned the police, the parish priest and the doctor. This phenomenon lasted for one and a half hours and was witnessed by about 50 persons.

Once again, Padre Pietro collected some of the blood and sent the sample to the same laboratory where he had previously sent the blood that had appeared on the Face of the Virgin. And it was here, in this scientific laboratory, where the extraordinary characteristics of these related events became known. It must be made very clear that this laboratory is one of the most prestigious in Europe. It is the Genetics Forensic Laboratory of the University of Bologna, equipped with the most modern sophisticated equipment with a team of researchers, doctors and biologists University Professors. This laboratory specializes in everything related to DNA. It works with Secret Services and Police of many nations and is in contact with other similar laboratories of other countries………………………………………………………….


This laboratory has Scientific Authority, therefore a verdict released by this laboratory is of indisputable [unquestionable] value. ………………………………………………………… ………………………………
After carrying out all the tests, the laboratory researchers sent Padre Pietro an official document stating, in resume, "the blood is human blood, of group AB, male, and was found to be identical in the two samples tested, the blood from the tears from the Icon of the Virgin and the blood that appeared of the Face of Jesus are the same." But there is more, the document continues from its evaluations to something that seems really incredible: "the configuration of the genetic features found in the Y chromosome does not correspond to any of the configurations present in the world wide data bank where the data of 22,000 male subjects from 187 different populations is kept."

And further on we read: "This blood is so rare that it must be considered as almost unique. By calculation, the statistical probability of finding, in the course of millennia, a typology of the same blood type, is almost nil, the mathematical probability of this happening is in the order of 1 in 200 billion possible cases." [In other words 1 on 200,000,000,000.]



What does all this mean? In the first place, the data obtained excludes in an absolute manner any case of fraud, deception or deceit: there is no one in the world who could be in a position to produce blood with similar characteristics. On the other hand, because we are dealing with a unique type of blood, the data indicates that it belongs to only one single Person and to no other person in all of humanity's history. Therefore it comes from a Man who has no ancestor and no descendant [offsprings]. Therefore it becomes quite clear and if we go to the Gospels and see what is written there about Jesus, [we learn there that He was] a Man unlike all others (unique) with these characteristics. While on this subject, it is quite significant that the blood which appeared on the Image of the Virgin is identical to the blood which appeared on the Face of the Image of Jesus. We could say from these results that we possibly could have for the first time ever the scientific data concerning the physical Person of Jesus: the DNA of Jesus, God Incarnated in a Body that is and will remain unique.

It is still too early to arrive at a final conclusion, but the verdict from science is, for all purposes, precise, public and without ambiguity. The scholars [researchers] who released this information did it in a cold [controlled], mathematical, but very clear language. They have specifically affirmed that they found themselves in front of something unique. And they are the ones, accustomed to scientific precision, to show with wonder, the extraordinary nature of these results. In a private letter to Padre Pietro, one of the researchers wrote: "these are results to stun with amazement even a statue." And again: "faced with the results of these analyses is incredible to me, and that is not saying much to say this, I could not even succeed in hiding my tears." And another one told him: "This is real human blood, but it seems to really come from another world." ……………………………………………………………………………

The ecclesiastical authorities are naturally aware of these facts and are presently investigating and evaluating them. Their prudence [caution] will be tremendous, and with good reason, for it is right that it should be so. But the scientific results lead one to think that we are perhaps faced with a supernatural Sign of exceptional importance.





Sourced from http://www.pdtsigns.com/icons.html

See original text in italian at medjugorie bolzano.it.