Religious question (not again! You'd thing I'd have learned my lesson) . . .?

Question

I suppose this has been asked a gazillion times but my propensity for sloth prevents me from doing the research myself, so bear with me.

This is regarding "free will." According to this belief system (as I understand it anyway), God in his wisdom and goodness gave us free will. I have the free will to choose the gift of his divine salvation or rot in hell. Or is that fry in hell? Whatever. So, here's my question: How can you call it free will when the consequences of using my free will to NOT choose his generous offer gets me a one-way ticket to you-know-where. I believe that is called (1) bribery (the gift of Heaven if I do what He desires of me), or (2) coercion (if I DON'T choose to believe, I am etenrally screwed). How do you explain this? Where is the "free will" in that? Thank you for any non-self-righteous response you may care to give. Peace.

Aaaaarrghhhh. What I'm trying to say here, with wasted breath, is that it is not a "free" choice, in the same way I am not "free" to jump off a bridge, i.e., commit suicide -- I KNOW I'll die - the laws of gravity don't cloak themselves in secrecy. They're as plain as day. In the case of religion, there is not a shred of evidence for it, or put another way, there is just as much evidence that Zeus is real. The free will to jump off a bridge is a ridiculous comparison. Gravity doesn't cloak itself in secrecy. There is PLENTY of evidence that I will drop according to Newton's law. It's as plain as day. It would be stupid to jump to certain death because unless you are totally insane, you KNOW what the consequences are. This is not the same thing.

And Nancyjo, forget "every possible clue." How about some hard evidence? Oh, I get it. That would be cheating. God plays games, is that it? Apparenlty, Einstein was mistaken. God DOES play dice. Why this whole business of punishment and reward in the first place. Oh, yes, Adam and Eve. Well, Eve screwed us over big-time, wouldn't you say? If Jesus can take on the sins of the whole world and still get to heaven, why am I stuck with Eve's big blunder? Nice going Eve. Women!!! Sheesh.

Answer 1

The problem of reconciling free will with an omniscient god is much more difficult than that. If god created us, and is all-knowing, then he knows what we will do, either by direct access to knowledge of future events, or at least by extracting them from reference to causal process as it interacts with the individual he made. Thus our actions can be viewed as an extension of his will, it's much more than him 'knowing' how we will act, our actions are de facto his actions.

The only way to refute this, that I can see, is to say there is no causality in the world whatsoever. But if that's so, we can't make 'decisions' about the outside world, and that's not any kind of useful free will either, it's flailing around uselessly. All of which means, as best I can tell, the notion of free-will coupled with an omniscient creator is entirely non-sensical.

And btw, there is no mention of man having free-will in the bible, in fact it very clearly says man does NOT have free will (Exodus, Ephesians etc). This was an idea the church pulled out of its a$s a few hundred years ago, to explain away an obvious problem. Namely that murderers and child molesters and the like are all god's creations, so how can they be bad and how can we justify punishing them? It's amazing the number of 'christians' you'll meet who've never actually read the bible.

I'd go further and say that the idea of free will makes no sense even before introducing god, but that's a different issue.

Answer 2

Free Will.
We have Free Will, great what does that mean?
And does God know everything?

Lets look at a computer program that plays chess a simple concept but the decision trees can be massive.
Ok
After the first moves you move
The computer runs the trees and sees every possibility and its winning move, it moves.
You make a move
The computer runs the trees and sees every possibility and its winning move, it moves.
You make a move
--Continue--

With free will you have choices sometimes it is a simple choice see a movie or stay home.
God dose no know what you will chose, that’s free will.
But after you make the choice God can see where that takes you at your end.
After every choice you make God (runs program) sees your end.
The end can change, God can also place objects in your path, and the choices there can drastically change your end.

So can God see where you end up heaven or hell? YES
Can you change that outcome? YES

But remember human nature, if you are on a path, heaven or hell, you tend to stay on that path unless something some object, of block etc… by God or by Satan, may change the your path.

Answer 3

If this whole reward/punishment thing is looked at from the point of view of the originators, it makes perfect sense.
How do you get a people to listen to their leaders, regardless of their own wishes?
Make them believe there is great reward forever if they go along with what is demanded of them and dire consequences if they don't.
By the second generation the people you conned already help in indoctrinating their own children, because they have now become believers. Now you have a willing population to be pushed any which way you want. The perfect con game.
The originators of that scam would probably laugh themselves silly if they could see how well and for how long this has worked. That it would take on a life of its own.
They are not laughing because they have gone to their well earned oblivion ages ago.
It's all about control and NOTHING else.
And if that doesn't make any sense to you, I have some excellent vacation land in the Everglades I can let you have real cheap if you send me the downpayment I'll tell you about. ;-)

Answer 4

I so understand you. I used to use the term, "He holds all the effing cards."

What would be your solution? God creates man, earth, hell, and heaven. He makes man a puppet. Man goes to heaven....ok, that's not exactly a "love" relationship.

God creates man, earth, hell, and heaven, and a free will and gives man every clue he can possibly give that the man should look outside himself and toward creation to get some idea of who God is, and what he is capable of giving.

Man chooses......sin.

God says, ok, if that's the way you want it, it is after all your choice. But I will make a way for you to come back to me if you want to. It's up to you. His name will be Jesus, and I'm sure you know the rest.

Just like the old saying, true love is setting that butterfly free. If it comes back to you, it is there because it wants to be. I found out something else too. Since I have come to know God through studying the Bible, I wouldn't want life without him. It would be worse than frying.

Thank you for your forthright question. I hope I haven't sounded self-righteous, because I certainly am not. I get to have a relationship with God because JESUS was righteous. You can too, if you want. Free will.

Answer 5

Sure. It's like this. You are driving in the dark, a person franctically waves you down and tells you, "there is a bridge out up ahead....and you won't be able to see it's out until it's too late. If you keep going on this road, you'll kill yourself". Now, you have a choice. Are you going to think this person is crazy, ignore him and keep going? Or are you going to believe him? By the way, he's right. You'd never see the bridge was out before you went off and died.

There is one way to heaven, by Jesus Christ. God has not hidden this from anyone. It's right there in the bible. Just as you have the choice to keep driving on the bridge, or not...you have a choice to escape certain death (eternal this time)...by listening to God and believing in His son. There are consequences to ignoring the warning about the road you're driving, whether it's literal, or figurative.

Answer 6

you do have free- will.

you have the free will to choose to live as a good person or as a bad one on this planet, once u get here by being born.

to get back to the spiritual plane and off of this planet ( our souls come from somewhere, don't they? ) the consequences of your choice is made known to you , well in advance.
the roads leading back to the spiritual plane are the path to heaven, or the path to hell--- they are both in other dimensions and u can either suffer in hell or rejoice in heaven, either way you do have a choice as to how you want to leave the planet and where u want to go.
now which path are u gonna hike on?

Answer 7

It is a matter of sin. Sin cannot dwell in his presence. God did not create hell for man, he created it for the devil and his angels. Unfortunately a man who leaves this life with sin unsurrendered to God has no choice but to go to hell because God cannot allow him to be in heaven with sin.There is no in between. No purgatory no reincarnation. This earth will not remain for others to live, like some religions say...The only way is to have Christ come into your life..God bless

Answer 8

God is perfect, so he is very easy to love. However if some choose to spend eternity apart from him, that is their choice. The fact that there is such a vast difference between the two outcomes is because of God's greatness. In this life we are supposed to bring him Glory. If anyone does not want to spend eternity doing that then they can choose hell.

Answer 9

Well now, let me see, i will explain my opinion of the "free will" AND rot in hell consequences,,

Every part of life, and choices has consequences, for example, if you want to live in Beverly Hills, in a mansion have servants, and elegance, you have to pay for it, right?
SO Generally a person needs to have a GOOD career, that makes lots of money to afford that, so they get an education beyond hight school and become a professionoal,, generally right? I will assume you said right.
if they don't want school, education, and a higher paying j
job,, they can not live in that environment,, they live in a lower income, and class area, maybe the slums,,
did someone punish them? I do not think so, it was their choice, free will. As i see it they were not willing to do what was required.. so there they were,,

ok now moving on, God is the owner of heaven, and i think that wont change, and he also is the owner of our souls, yet he gave us the freedom to do as we choose,
free will,,
So God, our creator says, if you want to live in my house,
and have eternal life, (trust me, it is better than the alternative) Then you are welcome, this is what you were designed to do, however, there are certain rules, as is anywhere , and conditions, you must live in the spirit, sin free, yes its tough, but the paycheck is worth it, and you have benefits that will never be taken away, for eternity
i do hope you choose my house, it is peace, no pain, no more sadness, no more tears, love, and contentment, and rewards beyond your imaginaiton, so let me know,

So, if you decide, yea but i don't like the rules, and right now, i am ok with the getto, and it is not as strict,, ok then you are free to go,, but once you YOU , YOU DECIDE, THE JOURNEY IS ONE WAY,, YOU CANNOT COME TO HEAVEN AS YOU WILL CONTAMINATE THE SPIRIT, AND IT IS NOT ABLE TO RECEIVE YOU,,

SO WHY IS IT A PUNISHMENT? isn't it our choice,?
AGAIN, I DO NOT KNOW ANY AREA OF EXISTENCE THAT FOR EVERY ACTION, THERE IS A REACTION,
YOU WILL NOT BE "PUNISHED " because you don't believe, AND BESIDES, IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE, THAT THERE IS AN ALTERNATIVE, HOW CAN YOU SAY IT IS A PUNISHMENT, AND YOU ARE ETERNALLY SCREWED? from what,? YOU FEEL IT DOES NOT EXIST..RIGHT?
i
I think that the absense of God, is darkness
the absense of love is ??YUCKIE,,
THE ABSENSE OF GOD, IS NOTHINGNESS, THIS IS NOT TO PUNISH YOU,,
YOU WANTED THIS, HE (GOD) will not force you to love him, or me,,..OR TO WANT HIS KINGDOM,,

OK HOW DID I DO SO FAR?
WELL, THIS IS MY THEORY, AND OF COURSE I HAVE NO PROOF,,
HOWEVER, I CHOOSE TO HAVE FAITH, AND THE GOOD NEWS IS, UNLIKE THE JOB SENERIO, YOU CAN KEEP FLUNKING, AND AS LONG AS YOU WANT TO BE WITH GOD IN HEAVEN, HE WILL HELP YOU AND I, AND PICK US UP WHEN WE FALL, AND FAIL, AND ACT LIKE JERKS,
I HOPE YOU DO NOT CONSIDER ME SELF RIGHTEOUS,
BECAUSE, I AM A REAL SPIRITUALLY "CHALLENGED" PERSON, AND WEAK, AND I AM COUNTING ON THE "FORGIVENESS" PART OF THIS CHOICE, OTHERWISE I AM "SCREWED" AS YOU SAY, AND I KNOW THAT THIS LIFE HERE ON EARTH, I HAVE BEEN SUCESSFUL, IN MESSING UP MOST OF MY CHOICES, AND SO I AM ASKING FOR THE SUPPORT OF GOD, (THE BIG GUY) AND I NEVER ASK FOR FAVORS ANYMORE, I ASK FOR WISDOM, AND A CHANCE TO GET IT RIGHT.

SO, "THERE IT IS"

I DO HOPE THAT IN MY JOURNEY, DIFFICULT AND FRUSTRATING,( I ALWAYS DO THINGS THE HARD WAY), I MAKE FRIENDS WITH PEOPLE, LIKE YOU AND TOGETHER, WE WILL SUPPORT EACH OTHER IN OUR AREAS OF DOUBT,AND WEAKNESS, I WILL BE STRONG FOR YOU, IN YOUR WEAK POINTS AND YOU FOR ME, IN MINE (GOSH, ALMOST LIKE MARRIAGE)

GOOD LUCK.
IF YOU DO NOT LIKE MY EXPLANATION, I ASK ONLY BREAK IT TO ME GENTLY..

Answer 10

You have the choice to waste your life on crap like these paradoxical questions or look for questions in life that you
1) can get answers you can verify
2) might have a effect on you life in terms of how to make decisions
Have fun regardless.