There is no God, Because...?

Question

God's power & our supposely power of "free will" contradicts each other and the logic is this:

God is supposed to be omnipotent & all knowing, which must include knowing everything that happened in the past and everything that will happen in the future. If he knows the future, then he MUST have foreseen everything we will do in life, and ultimately, whether we will goto heaven or hell.

In that case, he would have known the ultimate fate of everyone of us before we were even born. (if he doesn't know then he's not omnipotent).

So the logic is simple & obvious, if there is a god, then there is no free will, coz everything we do has been foreseen by god and everything will unfold the way he sees it. Which means sinners fate are sealed at birth, with no way of escaping it... thus making god a sadist and not worth worshipping.

however, if there is free will, then god can't foresee the future and thus make god not omnipotent, not worth worshiping.

- serious answers please.

Answer 1

Here's come more detail for that argument. 'Omniscience' is logically incompatible with 'free will'. 'Omniscience', all by itself, is sufficient to put the lid on 'free will'; omnipresence and omnipotence are irrelevant. It is not necessary for god to intervene in order to negate 'free will' as a possibility. Omniscience negates free will all by itself.

If we really DO have 'free will', then an omniscient god is logically excluded. The logical fallacy lies in the premise that if god is omniscient, all outcomes are already known to god... everything that you think, decide and do... and everything that you WILL think, decide, and do.

For an omniscient being, all of existence over all of time is laid out as a tapestry before him... past, present and future, down to the smallest detail of material, of thought and of deed, and all is constantly in his awareness. There is no past, present and future from that perspective... there is only an eternal 'now'.

If that is the case, since god already knows everything that will happen, then everything is already decided... and as we go along through life, we are merely doing what has already been seen by god. Since god knows and sees everything that will happen, NOTHING that we think or do can be contrary to what god already sees and knows. We might THINK we have free will... but since we are merely acting out what god already sees and knows, this can be no more than an ILLUSION of free will.

Put another way, if you come to a point of decision, you have no choice but to take the path that god already knows you will take... there is no other option. That works all the way down the path of cause-and-effect... and, along the way, it even casts doubt on the validity of the concept of cause and effect. I don't want to get into that, though... it makes my hair hurt.

So, imagine that since before time began, since before the universe was created, god has 'known' that you would come to a point of decision at some spatial and temporal coordinate, and that faced with the possible paths A and B, you would take path A.

Now, during the course of your life, you arrive at that spatial and temporal coordinate where this choice exists. You evaluate the potential outcomes, and you have it in your head that you have 'free will', and thus, you are free to choose between path A and path B. However, since god is 'omniscient', and god 'knows' that you will take path 'A', then path B IS NOT an option... it IS NOT a matter of choice... it is a 'NECESSITY'. OF NECESSITY, you WILL take path A. Not 'must'... not 'can'... WILL take path A. You DO NOT have a choice. Path B is NOT an option... it is not even a POSSIBILITY. The best that you can achieve is the ILLUSION that you are free to choose.

So, either god is omniscient OR we have free will. It is QUITE IMPOSSIBLE for BOTH of these conditions to coexist.

The only way out of this logical dilemma is to limit god's power; i.e., start taking away things that god can see and know, until we get to a point where free will BECOMES a possibility. But when we start doing that, then he ceases to be omniscient... and thus ceases to be a 'supreme being'.

So... free will is an impossibility concomitant with an omniscient diety. The following sums up the possibilities:

1. There is no omniscient diety... therefore, the whole argument is stupid and irrelevant.

2. IF we possess 'free will' AND god exists, THEN, of necessity, it is IMPOSSIBLE that god is omniscient. (This does not preclude the notion of 'god'... it just means that he can't be as 'supreme' as one might think he is... or wish him to be.) You are (logically) obliged to acknowledge that god CAN NOT BE all knowing... and since omniscience is one of the things that makes god 'all powerful', then this means that god CAN NOT BE omnipotent, either.

3. IF god exists AND god is omniscient THEN, OF NECESSITY, it is IMPOSSIBLE that that we have free will, and you are (metaphorically speaking) nothing more than a piece on god's eternal game board; and, thus, "... man is not responsible for his actions."

Personally, I vote for number 1. You can pick any one you want... but YOU MUST PICK ONE, because there are NO OTHER possible outcomes... NO OTHER logically valid choices.

It is unfortunate (for the Abrahamic death cults of desert monotheism) that the concepts of god were solidified as dogma a few thousand years before the philosophical discipline of 'logic' was dreamed up by the Greeks. Those that concocted the religion did not have access to the intellectual tools that would have enabled them to realize that they had 'screwed the pooch' with respect to assigning god's impossible attributes. It wasn't until the 4th century that this logical impossibility garnered serious attention, and churchmen got their theological 'dancin' shoes' on, trying to weasel their way out of the logical dilemma.

They did not succeed, and this issue continues to be debated even 'til this day. This logical dilemma (and the resulting 'cognitive dissonance') was a key element in some of the various 'heresies' that were spawned in the early days of Christianity.

However, the simple observation that these impossible beliefs still exist shows that this does not seem to have been a very big hindrance, under the simple expediency that "There is no problem so big that we cannot ignore it, until it will go away." Too bad for them, though... it DOESN'T go away.

Corporate religion is helped along by the fact that most 'believers' do not employ logic or critical thinking skills; heck... that's why they're believers in the first place. If they employed logic and critical thinking, they WOULD NOT BE believers. So, even though these concepts create a logical impossibility, it does not seem to present a significant problem for them.

Answer 2

Isaiah 55:9-For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my (God) ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Best way I can describe it to you is it's simmilar to an land mammal (lion, tiger, monkey, whatever) looking at an insect like an ant that seems to slowly creep along as it's going...well the land mammal has a higher and farther view than the insect. The same aplies to birds that can see higher and farther than the land mammals and can see not just the path the land mammals taking, the birds can see the other possible paths paths that the mammals on land could take.
As the scripture says this same thing applies to God and us. God can see all the possibile paths we can take and becuase He has that higher view He has a good idea as to where we will finally end up. But Just becuase he can see all the possibilities does not mean we dont have a choice, the choice is very much ours, and prayerfully we make the right choices that lead towards Christ.
Remember, we do have free will to choose what direction we want to go. But God sees all the possibilities becuase He has a higher view than us

Ecclesiastes 1:9-The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun

Ecclesiastes 1:14-I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

There's nothing new under the sun becuase God sees all the possibilities and everything pretty much repeats and recycles it's self.

Answer 3

I'm an atheist, but let me poke a hole in this reasoning. If there is a god, he can be omnipotent and you can have free will at the same time. God would be able to "see" every foreseeable outcome based on the choices you make. Whether you turn left or right, God would know the outcome of both decisions even though you made a choice. God would also be able to see the life you didn't choose. Of course, since I don't believe in a god, I don't think the image of an omnipotent, omnipresent god is worth worshiping either.

Answer 4

That's assuming God is omniscient.

I like the stories of the older gods. Zeus and Osiris and all them were simply humans with great power. They had human weaknesses.

The god of the Bible also has human weaknesses (jealousy, anger, etc.), but he is purported to be without weakness. This oxymoron just doesn't sit well.

Now, could I accept a god who is not omnipotent? Sure. Many people worship such gods. Of course, as you and others have stated, if God is not omnipotent, then why are we wasting our time worshipping him?

I'd say that you have shown that omniscience and free will are mutually exclusive. I would not say you've shown there is no god, for there could be a god that is not omniscient and not subject to this proof.

Whether that god is something that should be worshipped is a whole different kettle of fish.

While I don't have proof of the nonexistence of God, I do have my own experience to draw on. As no god (or god-like being) has asked for my adoration, I do not have a reason to worship anyone. Even if such a being were to ask me for adoration, the circumstances would have to determine if I give him that satisfaction or not.

Answer 5

Yes God is omnipotent and yes we do have free will. He didnt make the movie, he just saw it. He gives us choices to act out our life movie and thats where the free will comes in, he just knows what we're gonna do. For example if you sin for a long time and then become a christian, God knew you were gonna do that but he's not gonna make you choose. Thats where you come in. Our lives are like movies that God has already seen. We can say we're making a left and then turn around and make a right then on a sneak make a left. We dont change. God has already seen all of the turns that we made. There definately is a God and there definately is free will because everyday you make a choice to do whatever you want and God knows what you're gonna do. Sinners arent doomed from birth, God just knew what were gonna happen to them. They made their choice to do the things that caused them to go to hell. And how could there not be a God, you think your alarm clock really wakes you up, and what man made the sky and the moon and the stars. Be for real!!!

Answer 6

this is up 2 u

Answer 7

What you say is true, God is all powerfull and all knowing. Just because He has that power of seeing the future doesn't mean he chooses to use it every chance He has. One of God's qualities is justice, how just would it be if he went ahead and "saw" our futures?

Another point, everyone is a sinner, no matter what. As imperfect humans, it is part of our lives. Yet, God gives us the opportunity to worship him and develop a relationship with him. Though we sin everyday, he is loving enough to forgive us. He understands us better than we do, afterall, he is our creator. As we have freewill, God chooses not to see our futures and gives us the benefit of the doubt.

The answer: God has the choice of seeing the future. Just because He has that power doesn't mean He uses it every chance He gets. Think about it.

Answer 8

Your argument breaks down at this point:
"if there is a god, then there is no free will, coz everything we do has been foreseen by god and everything will unfold the way he sees it"

Being able to forsee everything does not equal "no free will".

For eg. If a policeman forsees that a suicide jumper is about to jump, is the policeman imposing on the jumper?

Answer 9

Not a bad question, but , I am sure I can answer it for you.
God is omnipotent Fact. God gives us a free will to act and decide for ourselves the things that we do.
God does not make us do anything, but allows us to choose, even though He knows the result , so therefore He is not only Omnipotent, but also patient and benevolent.

Answer 10

easily!!! It became into something extra formal, yet I used to speak to Him notwithstanding the reason and because I stored forward to my own ambition and desires, whilst He gave me avertisements I saved none and did my way going into further and extra trubles! Into an end, interior of a deep depresion, He saved my life (!!!) the very 2nd I left away of all my deep desires... There, empty heart, i became into crammed with God's easy and Peace and Love - an entire New life, a sparkling physique, a sparkling innovative and prescient over the final and the destiny :) :) :) specific, he's my Saviour!!!

Answer 11

The protestants, most, believe in predestination. No matter what you do it's already decided, I think this turns God into a monster.
The church believes that God knows everything but he lets us decide.
For more on this read St. Thomas Aquinas.