Seriuos question, why does anything have to be created?

Question

I here that as a reason there must be a God a lot of times and I don't quite get it. As far as we can prove, nothing has ever been created ever. Things that were already there can be manipulated and broken down and built up so that it's unrecognizable as what it once was, but that isn't creation. You can't create or destroy energy or matter, so I'm not sure where anyone gets the notion that you must have a creator to have anything. Who made the decision that matter couldn't have always been here but any kind of god could have always been here. It just sounds like shoddy early human reasoning to me.

Freeway, do you have a page or something where I can read about that? I'd like to hear more about it.

And to everyone who said it I agree that we know nothing about it and it is all speculation which is why I don't think it justifies an intelligent creator at all.

Irreducible complexity sounds like justification of an ignorant mind. I don't understand how it happened so it must be too complex to happen naturally at all. That's an arrogant way of thinking. You only use 10% of your brain, if we can't understand the organ that makes us work how the hell are we supposed to know how the universe works. And by the way, like one person saidthe concept of forever didn't exist, this could have been upwards of quintillions of years. I'd be willing to believe just about anything could have happened by accident in that time. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that matter "coming of nothing" ties into string theory somehow. If that was correct then there would be virtually no need for any god ever. But I'm willing to admit that we don't and may never know anything for sure.

Ok, for BC and the guy after him I see what you're saying. I really do. But instead of reasoning that just because we can't explain things happened so it must have been something smarter doesn't satisfy me, at all. I can imagine that I never find out how it happened, why do we have to settle for an answer because it makes sense. At some point for all the human mind could understand and mathematically prove gravity was God's work too. Too sumerize it, if your mind can't perceive a three dimensional warp who's to say something beyond our current perception didn't do this? Is it wise to make a decision on what we already know or should we just admit we don't know and keep trying?

Answer 1

bertrand russell described it as "lack of imagination" that so many humans require that there be a beginning to things. i agree with you 100%. the big bang was a specific thing that happened that rearranged the components of the universe, but that doesn't mean that it was the beginning of "things" in general. the truth is,, there probably wasn't any sort of a beginning. things have always just existed in one form or another. (although,, i will say that the concept that time itself didn't even exist until AFTER (??) the big bang does render the term "always" a tad bit useless.)

as for the last 13.7 billion years, you nailed it on the head, man. "Things that were already there can be manipulated and broken down and built up so that it's unrecognizable as what it once was"

a lot of people really misunderstand the concept of entropy and have this idea that only so called "disorder" can form naturally., and therefore that all so called "order" requires intelligent design. that's just ridiculous though. we already know that the basic principles of chemistry allow for the transformation of "disorder" to "order". we have all sorts of crystals and other "nicely arranged", seemingly "orderly" examples of these entirely natural processes. all life is really is just rather advanced chemistry. RNA and DNA can form through the exact same basic and natural principles.



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PYP,

you're missing the point,,, if things were already here, then nobody created them. end of story. you keep falling back on, "well,, HOW could things have always been here?? there is no way., therefore a creator was needed." ---- that's where you're asserting yourself way too strongly though,, because you do NOT know for sure that there is no way for things not to have always been here. you have to recognize that that is in fact a valid possibility,,, in which case, a creator just wouldn't be needed at all.

MONKEELICIOUS,

no. everything that YOU are aware of is created. and even then,,, no actually. it's just rearranged. so really,,, you can't name ANYTHING that you know for sure was created out of nothing. so how can you be so sure that the universe was created out of nothing.

furthermore,, i hate to be trite.,,, but where do you think god came from?? do you believe that HE always just existed, or do you believe that there used to be nothing but one day he created himself??? i can't for the life of me think of a third explanation that you might be willing to acknowledge, and both of these would break your own laws. you might say that god is exempt from those rules,, but why then isn't the universe exempt?? your only answer to THAT question will be based on ideas that you already have based on your already believing in god, which makes your answer inadmissible.

FREEWAY,

ok,, the big bang might've been the "creation" of matter and energy, but that does NOT mean that it was the creation of things in general. you even said yourself that they were formed out of quarks, so you're admitting that quarks existed before the big bang,,, and if not that, then at least the theoretical components of quarks, whatever they may be.

to restate then,,, the universe wasn't "created" during the big bang. it was merely rearranged out of what was already there.

JANA_BO_NANA,

please don't compare nucleotides to wet leather. they're very different things. there is no natural force that causes leather to attract other pieces of leather to form jackets. however, there ARE forces that attract atoms, molecules, and specifically nucleotides to specific counterparts in order to form life as we know it.

as for instincts and thought processes, those can also form naturally through the process of natural selection over the course of billions of years.

irreducible complexity does not exist. for every example that you can show that demonstrates this clearly false excuse to keep denying in a perfectly reasonable science, we can show you how your example can in fact be REDUCED to a series of steps, each justified. --- why did you even bring this up though? this has nothing to do with the question that the poster asked. do you even know what irreducible complexity is?

finally, i will close by saying that i can see right through you. it's not the case that you believe in god because godlessness makes no sense. rather,, you believe that godlessness couldn't exist simply because you already believe in god. after all,,, you don't just believe in some sort of a creator and leave it at that. you actually go so far as to believe in jesus christ specifically. that doesn't make any sense. christianity is flawed beyond reason. if you believe in any sort of a creator, then the best we can do is show you that there doesn't NEED to be a creator. if you go so far as to believe that christianity is true, then we can nail you on all sorts of stuff. christianity is quite clearly false.

Answer 2

Since you claim to be serious, I'll try to answer.

When you say, "You can't create or destroy energy or matter," in actuality, WE can't create (in the usual meaning of the word), but God can. He didn't take what was already in existence, break it down, manipulate and rearrange it. Before he created it, there was NOTHING! -- no subatomic matter or energy -- NOTHING!

Of the two ways of viewing the existence of the universe, -- as a created thing, or an unending (or un-beginning) thing -- it is the latter that has more flaws in its 'proof'.

For instance, there is the third law of thermodynamics. Figuratively speaking, the universe can be thought of as a giant ice cube, and it's melting. If this process is allowed to continue, it will eventually be all melted. In the godless scenario, there is nothing outside the universe to refreeze it; so the universe is a one-shot deal. Of course, that doesn't explain how it got frozen in the first place.

Some like to think that there is some natural process that will reverse the melting at some stage (some think gravity will do the trick), and the whole process will start all over again; this is the cyclic universe theory. However, at the intersection of two cycles, all natural laws break down -- there is no known law that transcends these cycles in order to remake the ice cube, so to speak. So, "as far as we can prove," the universe could never have started in the first place.

However and on the other hand, with a God-centered, created universe, God transcends the universe he created -- if it "winds down," he can wind it up again, if it "melts," he can refreeze it; he superseeds and transcends all natural laws; he created the laws.

So, it is not shoddy, early human reasoning. There are some great minds (far greater than you or I) that believe in God, and that the universe is his creation. Rather, it's shoddy human UNreason that says there is no God!

Oh! BTW, even if you did have all the matter and energy to break down, manipulate and build up into a fully functioning universe, WHO IS DOING THE MANIPULATING AND BUILDING UP?

Answer 3

The answer is irreducible complexity. Design. You can have a pound of wet leather sitting in your bathtub, hang it out to dry and beat it till its nice and soft and supple..but until ya piece it all together and make a nifty jacket out of it and have some use for it, it might as well be a pound of wet leather. The same is with everything created...you can have all the elements, atoms, microbes, neurons, molecules, rays, waves, vapors, energy, light and other cosmic substances you want swirling around in a vortex of space but its not going to come together to create a dolphin, a kangaroo, a pelican, a bear, a pepsis wasp or any other creature including the so called "simple" cell all by itself. Then after the thing is created it has to be given the instinct or urgings or thought processes to do the thing that it does even up to utilizing another complex system or creature in its habitat...to the point of even manipulating its own environment. Creation speaks of a Creator...it is its own testamony. There is nothing shoddy about it. We cannot create energy or destroy it..or transfer it into some other venue of existance..but we are not God. It is through Him, for Him and by Him that we live, move and have our being. Love in Christ, ~J~ <><

Answer 4

Your point that God is not a creator of either matter or energy may sound logical but then,the moot question as to how and why the matter and energy were created still remains to be answered.Besides having attributes of a creator,the concept of a God has many more uses in human lives. However like other human inventions ,the concept of GOD has it's own merits as well as limitations.So,everybody has to take his own pick and be happy.By the way,unlike energy,matter can be destroyed as we understand. Lastly, if you are comfortable without the concept of a GOD,go ahead ,live and enjoy your life.

Answer 5

Our brains really should have developed enough now that all humans would realize the whole human concept. As a child you think as a child. It is so hard to believe that an adult human would sit and cry and talk and actually give money to a non existent thought in their heads. A GOD, JESUS, SATAN, It might as well be the tooth Fairy. Don't they really see how ridiculous that all is if there is people on other planets that have evolved past our intelligent, which it really wouldn't take much; must look at us and think were no starter than a mouse.

Answer 6

I totally agree. What I find even more crazy is how so many believe in a creator that is powerful enough to create everything out of nothing yet not be able to fix things on this planet. 9.9 x's out of 10 what you create you certainly can fix and make right so I wonder what this creators problem is because things dont seem to be getting any better. Or like my son told me one day what happened is god created earth and saw what he had done and got the hell out of dodge and no way is coming back.

Answer 7

The Universe is expanding. We know this through red shift analysis of the galaxies. Science has extrapolated from this knowledge that there was a central location that we arbitrarily call singularity. The theory that works the best mathematically is that neither energy or matter existed before the big bang, but was created through quarks and anti-quarks. Although this theory doesn't prove the existence of God, It does contradict your central premise that there was no creation.

Answer 8

People have this urge to get everything explained. Have you ever thought about how boring the world would be if nothing else could be discovered? That's the creationist paradise. Once everything is explained, order can be imposed. But meanwhile there are still things to be discovered, a healthy :) disorder is still fashionable. Limited minds cherish the static, ordered view of the world. Curious people like the dynamic, always active chaos that allows genius to lurk beyond every bend of the road.

Answer 9

To justify the creator.


There are dozens, if not more, speculations about the universe prior to the beginning of the expansion of our visible universe. The claim that astrophysicists all agree that there was "nothing" prior to the "big bang" is incorrect.

The only correct statement is "humans know very little about the universe and what we do claim to know is based primarily on speculation."

Answer 10

You are spot on - shoddy human reasoning. Little human minds think that the Universe at large must correspond to what makes sense to them. Anthropocentric ignorance.