If order cannot arise spontaneously from chaos then how do you account for snowflakes?

Question

Some people like to argue that an intelligence must have designed and created living organisms, because order could not otherwise arise from chaos (the Second Law of Thermodynamics is sometimes trotted out erroneously as saying that everything always tends towards disorder, which is not what it says at all). The perfect 6-fold symmetry of snow crystals, as well as many other things in the natural world, prove that order does indeed arise spontaneously arise from chaos, so how does this invalidate evolution?

visionary: It's certainly not a myth, I've seen it myself. Normally snow falls as fluffy clumps so you can't distinguish the crystals, but one day I saw tiny snowflakes lying on the dark-painted roof of a car, and they were indeed perfect little symmetrical crystals.

AirborneSaint: Thanks for reinforcing my point - It is indeed an 'orderly process' and that's the point I was making. Natural processes do generate order from chaos.

Answer 1

The second law of thermodynamics applies to a closed system. Evolution is not happening in a closed system. Therefore, you can't apply the 2nd law of thermodynamics to invalidate evolution (plus if it was that easy, scientists would have done it already).

Answer 2

The flake you see, is the most stable configuration for the micro-conditions that formed it. The rules that apply, are constant through time (in the beginning, now, and in the future). Those rules are no longer spontaneous, but they were created in the beginning.

It seems to me that God could indeed form each of our souls spontaneously, and if he desired our bodies too. But I think most of the cosmos is on auto...

Answer 3

There is no evidence of macro evolution in the fossil record. Evolution is a theory only in that respect and micro evolution does not prove macro.

Answer 4

Snow and ice are both precipitation -- processes that remove water from clouds. Clouds, regions of the atmosphere with high relative humidity, are made of droplets of water and/or bits of ice. Even though water is much denser than air, these droplets and ice crystals are small enough to be suspended by random upward air motion.

When these droplets or crystals join together, gravity overcomes the suspending force and we have precipitation.

Precipitation occurs in four overlapping categories:

Rain is liquid water (in middle and cold latitudes, almost all rain originates as ice in clouds).

Sleet is rain that freezes after exiting a cloud.

Freezing rain is liquid water that freezes after contacting Earth. Freezing rain causes dreaded ice storms and is a major hazard to transportation and utility lines.

Snow is water that freezes and aggregates in clouds. Snow takes countless crystalline structures.

Water freezes when it drops below the freezing point and loses an amount of energy called the heat of crystallization. When a large amount of water freezes, we get hunks of ice.

Things grow more interesting when water vapor freezes in the atmosphere.
Small water droplets are highly reluctant to form into larger droplets. Even when the temperature is below freezing, the laws of thermodynamics, which govern the movement of energy in matter, govern the crystallization process. (Where is your chaos again?)
In air, pure water will not freeze until far below 0 degrees C. Crystallization occurs much more easily around a particle of dust, or even a bacterium. Similarly, water vapor joins together much more easily around a tiny nucleus. Cloud seeders try to cause rain by inserting these nuclei into clouds, but their effectiveness is debatable.

At any rate, once the congregation process starts, it cascades. Just as water coalesces much faster on existing droplets, ice crystals in clouds readily gather onto existing ice crystals.

Three processes cause the enlargement of ice crystals into snowflakes:

Accretion is the crystallization of water droplets on an existing ice crystal.

Deposition occurs when water in the gas phase deposits onto an ice crystal.

Aggregation is the union of existing ice crystals. The rate depends on crystal shape: dendritic -- fingered -- crystals are most likely to aggregate.

Snowflakes may join together after leaving a cloud. Because dendritic (finger-shaped) crystals are most gregarious, dendritic flakes are the largest.
If the air beneath the cloud is warm, the falling snowflakes may melt, forming raindrops.
If the air beneath the cloud is dry, the flakes may sublimate -- change directly to water vapor without passing through the liquid phase. Sublimation causes "fallstreaks," downward-pointing tails of snow that never reach the ground, beneath high, cirrus clouds.

Crystals are molecular structures with a specific bond geometry. Because water molecules only bond at 120 degrees, ice crystals and snow flakes are all based on hexagons, which have 120-degree intersections.

Both temperature and humidity in clouds govern the growth of snowflakes:
Temperature affects crystal shape. Large, dendritic flakes grow best at temperatures of -10 to -12 degrees C, while plates grow at warmer and colder conditions. Note that the temperature of formation determines the original crystal shape. If the flake passes through dry air, it may sublimate. If other ice crystals are present, they may aggregate onto the crystal. If liquid water is present, it may accrete. All these processes can alter a flake,

And that is how we get snow flakes. It is not a chaotic process, but is infact a very orderly process, one could almost say it was as if it was DESIGNED to be that way...

Answer 5

They don't arise from Chaos, they arise from complex natural laws.

Crystal growth, a part of Crystallography, is a facinating subject that is fairly well understood.

Answer 6

you might like to get your facts a little straighter. i've read somewhere (and i'm afraid i can't quote a source) that the "perfect sixfold symmetry" thing is a myth

as for your question, i can't think straight enough at the moment to actually answer it.... sorry :)

Answer 7

I have no idea what you're saying but I wanted to tell you that if that's your guinea pig on your avatar then you have a cute guinea pig :).

Answer 8

Good qestion. l believe that behind the chaos is order not that order sprigs from the chaos.

Answer 9

Tiresome and old....