Proof of Miracles -- Atheists. Part II..............?

Question

Proof of Miracles? Atheists?
I asked this a few minutes ago, and it seemed most people said that they'd be more inclined to think they had a random hallucination. So, to get to the point, imagine this scenario: you and three friends all saw a statue of mary (to use richard dawkins' miracle of choice) wave at you, would you consider it a miracle?

(seeing as how it's impossible that 4 people share the same hallucination.) (oh, and richard dawkins is one the worlds most famous evolutionists.)

And would you mind stating your religion. (oh, on the side, I'm jewish.)

Please keep answers short (~40 lines).
Thanks

Answer 1

No, because it is possible for 4 people to share the same hallucination. It's also possible for the 3 friends to be lying. It's also possible all four of you were hypnotized. It's also possible I'm the only one who thinks he saw it, and have a false memory of my friends claiming to have seen it as well, combined with a short term memory problem that prevents me from remembering the innumerable times they've told me they didn't see it.

The problem with miracles is primarily that they must be witnessed via the natural. Anything we witness in the natural has natural explanations possible, and so can not act as evidence of the supernatural (aka miracles).

Answer 2

No, I wouldn't consider it a miracle, I'd consider it a trick. I've never heard of statues of Mary doing the wave.

However, I believe that the apparitions of Mary at Lourdes and at Fatima were real. (For some entertaining Hollywood treatments, check out "The Song of Bernadette" and "The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima", both on DVD.) And that the few church-approved miracles that occurred at Lourdes are testament to the apparations that took place there.

In addition, scientists have not been fully able to explain the image of the Virgin of Guadalupe on the cloak of Juan Diego, or why the cactus-fiber cloak, available for all to see in Mexico City's basilica, has even continued to exist after more than four centuries. Or how there got to be images of people in the retinas of the figure's eyes. Some things are simply beyond the realm of science. Oy vey, such is life.

By the way, I believe that the staircase at Loretto Chapel in Santa Fe is miraculous. It couldn't be the result of a random hallucination. Maybe of a wandering carpenter.

Yes by goy, I'm Catholic. (And if I weren't a Christian, I'd be Jewish -- what an awesome religion, and what an awesome culture. And the food! Pass the latkes and the matzoh ball soup.)

Answer 3

There is a possiblity that only one is having the hallucination and through accidental thought projections the other three could have been sensitive receivers or just plainly agreeing to what the first receiver is seeing. I am a Christian but before I believe it is a miracle I have to look at it in a more scientfic possibilities. And honestly, some miracles of yesterdays are technology today and that there is no miracle that cannot be explained scientifically
and someday we will all come to understand all of those phenomena.
Like in the apparitions at Lourdes, France, it is also possible that only one of the three girls saw Mary and the rest were convince by the thoughts projected by the one who sees.

Answer 4

What a puny description of a miracle. Only a religious person could think that something like that could be impressive.

If an omnipotent being wants to prove to me that it exists, then it can just make the sun vanish for a minute while leaving the sky blue, the weather the same, and everything else the same. That would break so many laws of physics that I would have to assume that the being was either omnipotent or close to it, or had complete control over my senses, which amounts to the same thing as far as I'm concerned.

Now, does that prove that the being in question created me, or the sun, or the galaxy, or the universe? Nope. Would I still treat such a being as a god? Absolutely - they might as well be one with that kind of power. Would I worship that being? No - I'm too proud and independent to worship any being.

Answer 5

One would have to assume that either it was a miracle or a hallucination.

With those as your options, the wisest thing to do would be to research the history of miracles, to determine what one really looks like.

The best record of miracles is found in the bible. Jesus and the apostles all performed miracles. Each miracle that they performed was a direct assistance to a person. Either someone was healed, someone was raised from the dead, someone was fed, etc.,. Likewise, in every case, miracles were performed at the hands of people, or by Jesus himself. There are no recorded exceptions in the bible, which is counted as the Word of God.

A statue of Mary waving at you would not provide any direct assistance to anyone, nor does it wave at the bidding of a person or Jesus himself. This is outside the normal pattern of God's behavior. So, it is more logical to assume that a statue of Mary waving at you is a hallucination, than to believe that it is a Miracle.

God does everthing for a reason.

P.S., I'm a Christian.

Answer 6

That depends a bit. If we were talking about it earlier, then it could be the power of suggestion. I'm not sure I'd describe it as a miracle, even if varifiable, because it's stupid. Miracles are supposed to huge and beneficial, like feeding the hungry or healing back a detached limb (www.whywontgodhealamputees.com). It would depend on it I thought the situation was real and if my friends saw the exact same things. A miracle of that sort, however, doesn't prove the existence of god. It just proves that some wierd sh*t just happened. :)
I am an atheist.

Answer 7

I think I would either think..
Somebody had slipped something into our drink that was making us hallucinate,
We smoked too much weed,
We were tired,
It wasn't really what we saw
If it really did wave (which is impossible, and HOW would THAT be a miracle? We'd be scratching our head for the rest of the month thinking we'd absolutely gone bonkers!) how does that prove the existence of God?
Did this happen to someone you know? This is jsut an diea, not proof. unless it happened to you, (or me) I would know how to respond better to this question.

The Bottom Line: don't have a religion and I don't believe in Christianity. There is no proof. Simple as that. If there were proof, maybe, just maybe I'd consider it.

THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ATHIEST AND A CHRISTIAN:
[before I start I'll say I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST CHRISTIANS, ONLY THE RELIGION, I'M ENTILTLED TO MY OPINION AS YOU ARE TO YOURS. ]
Christians believe in God, Jesus, all that mumbo jumbo. Not that I can speak for them, but have oyu ever met a Christian that accepts the fact that they could be wrong? Exactly.
MYSELF as an Athiests, again, can't speak for everyone! --> I accept that yes, I COULD be WRONG. *gasp*. Yes, it could happen that when I die and BOOM I go to hell for not believing in God. I OD believe that could happen I RECOGNIZE it could/ But the way Is ee it it's not very likely at all considering my beliefs and proof...blah blah blah. DO Christians know they could be wrong too?

Answer 8

I am an atheist and I would think about what I had seen
I would examine the statue to make sure it is not an animatronic figure from disneyland

If I was convinced that god did that then yest I would reconsider christianity

but it is one heck of an IF you have set up
without seeing some proof of god I do not believe and further I dont think you should either!

if god does exist why did he give us all this evidence that the bible is wrong and that he does not exist? (fossils etc)

I would think it would be easier for everyone if on a world made by a god that there be some proof

so I guess Im waiting for a waving statue before I Change my mind.

If you had the ability to make a statue wave and trick people into believing, would you?

Answer 9

There's a ton of people who swear they've seen visions of the virgin Mary in everything from a tree to a toaster...psychology says that some of these people are having these "visions" as the power of suggestion can be quite strong. That doesn't mean it's a miracle, doesn't mean it's real, and doesn't mean those folks aren't crazy for praying to the tree or the toaster.

That being said, I want to point out I'm not an atheist. I believe in God. However, I think you're gonna have to come up with a better way to make your point.

Answer 10

I heard about that statue hand waving stuff somewhere. According to the scientific explanation, the particles that make up the statue are in constant random vibration, and there is a very miniscule probability that at some point in time all the particles in a hand might all vibrate in the same direction thus causing the hand to wave. But you will have to wait a bloody long time for that to happen!