Who is more likely to be deceiving themselves - Theists or atheists?

Question

It would be wonderful if there really was a loving god up there to look after us, but atheists don't see any reason to believe that there is. Conversely, theists are dismayed by the idea that there might *not* be a loving god up there. Who's more likely to be deceiving themselves?

Methuselah: Atheists are the ones who decline to believe claims from theists which are without foundation, so I think you have it the wrong way round there.

hellbent: I understand your comment but I think it's part of human nature to believe what you would like to be true, regardless of the facts. In that way I think people *do* deceive themselves, because they believe things which aren't justified.

Answer 1

Doesn't everybody know that I am the only one with all the right answers yet? LOL...

THAT is the problem. I was kidding at least to an extent. Most people are less aware of thier own arrogance. Most people deep down DO believe they are the only one with the right answers. Especially when it comes to spiritual matters. Most Athiests employ being non-spiritual in the same vein that theists employ thier spirituality. Sometimes with such a tight fisted closed minded insistance that only they can be right that convo's between a devout Theist and devout Athiest can be downright comical. In fact Athiesm has taken on all the aspects of a religion today. They just worship a null God. The God of nothingness if you may.

I don't think either side is actively decieving themselves. People choose various reasons to believe or not to believe. Rationalization then takes over. For example Athiest A's belief in God is shaken by something. Perhaps it is a corrupt church, maybe it is current events. Perhaps it is that they by nature cannot possibly conform to the dogma set forth in the religious mindset they actualize thier particuler religion. After seeking or instead of seeking and alternate expression of the same religion or other religions they declare there is no religion because of (list of facts pertaining to thier personal interaction with religion and laws of nature/humanity). Once that step is taken they have stepped into a spiritual void. If they are wrong they risk eternal damnation with most religions. So being wrong is a very scary thought. To shore up those thoughts they actively attack anything around them. The more vicious they fight religion the more it is a reflection of insecurity and fear inside them.

On the opposite side fear and insecurity is again the primary motivators. Theist B believes in thier religious mindset but has never undertaken the necessary exploration of it to be confident in thier own beliefs. So they externalize just as the Athiest does to reassure themselves. The net result is the same.

The pattern of a typical Athiest or Thiest who is confident and comfortable in thier faith is a very tolerant and non-aggressive expression of those beliefs. The ten Commandments or a non-believer's symbol is not offensive or even really concerning to them unless they are forced to privitize such things. LIke having to have a symbol in thier home or to deny thier own faith or lack of it. The less rationaliation going on, the less surface ripples you will see.

Rationalization is a natural human function. A necessary one as well. Too much of the world is unknown. To deal with those unknowns and not be paralyzed by them we have to rationalize. All humans comit wrongs and make mistakes. Again we must rationalize these to an extent to return to full functional level. Most of this is done subconciously and is in general healthy for the individual. It is where rationalization meets insecurity that fanaticism is born. It is then hardened in the fires of opposisition. Fanaticism can breed fanaticism once it has formed. Often in the opposisition. Thiest C who is a loud fanatic can turn Athiest E a laid back and confident Athiest into a fanatic by battering E constantly until E would rather die than be like C. The cause which is espoused is now unseperatble from the person who rightly or wrongly attempts to represent that cause. The personification may be an individual, a group or even larger units. The bombardment however must be both steady and unreasonable to harden a self confident into a fanatic. Cessation of the bombardment will often see a loss in fanaticism and return to norm.

Nor can the nature of such a subject be truely known. If for example God told you such and such was true. How do you really know that was God? Our perceptions are subjective by deffinition. Our knowledge is %100 resulting from personal interaction of some sort. Whether it be in person or thorugh indirect contact such as reading or observation. A diety by deffinition is not a person. We have no mechanism for truely understanding such. The thoughts and motives of a diety will not be our own. This puts us way out of our own waters and limits what a diety could possibly say to us as we are self limited by our own shortcomings in perception.

That is where faith comes in. Since you cannot possibly prove or disprove through objective observation such a subjective experience. You have only logical reasoning combined with sensory input and experience to use as your tools. So in the end it becomes a matter of is it better to take a chance and believe or better to take a chance and not believe. Nobody is really %100 certain. Never will be until they die. Even the most famous religious leaders of the world have doubted. Even the most famous Athiest will doubt. The mechanism with which they deal with this doubt will decide whether thier particuler brand of faith leads down the road of fanaticism or not.

So faith becomes that excruciating deciding point. That weight on on side of the see saw of believe or don't believe. The stronger the faith or I guess you could call it anti-faith the more weighted you'll go to one side or another in opinion (not in expression).

For a questioning creature such as human beings, faith is a mighty flimsy thing to be play such an important role as spirituality does in human existance.

So to answer your question. None and all are fooling themselves. We start with an honest belief. We then corrupt it with rationalizations. Finally we teeter to one side or another based on these rationaliations combined with an etheral quality called faith.

Me I search for God in every day life. The Bible to me is only a hint of where I might find evidence of existance and assuming he exists the nature of his existance. For me the preponderance of evidence is that God exists. I am leaning towards that he means well for the human race, but my journey is still very much in it's infancy I am trying to devine the intentions of something which by nature I am incapable of understanding at the outset.

Answer 2

hard to say but I would have to say theists are. There is no concert proof of this god other than the bible--if you want to call the bible concert proof.

Yeah hearing people say yes he is real look around you.. Ah! that's called nature.

If he was real and performed all these miracles such as partin the the red sea or turning a loaf of bread to feed hundred of people why is he not doing that now??? OH right the so called story of Job.

I just think that each time an Atheist points out a flaw theists always try to use the bible or something else to try and show that god is real but in the end the truth is god is not real

edit:
funny how most theists use the bible as sole proof of the existence of god

Answer 3

Atheists.. and Theists.

Because neither is smart enough to really know either way.

If there is a God up there, our feeble human minds can't even come close to understanding how complex it really is.

Atheists tend to think they're too smart to believe in a God; that it's all just mythology or superstition. If they don't see it with their own two eyes, then they don't believe. Well, one of the smartest men to ever grace this earth, Albert Einstein, believed in a God. Not to say he believe in the Jewish God or Jesus, but he definately believed in A God. Some of the brightest minds in the world believe, so there must be some kind of logic behind it all.

Answer 4

I believe that atheists are deceiving themselves. To call yourself an "atheist" is to say definitively that there is no god - or no one with infinite knowledge of the universe. The problem with that position is that you would first need to have infinite knowledge of the universe in order to make such a proclamation. However, if you did have infinite knowledge, there'd be no reason for the initial statement. If someone said to you that there is no such thing as a pink rock with black polka-dots on it anywhere in the universe, you'd probably take issue with their stating that so definitively. You'd rightly say that they would need infinite knowledge to make such a claim - otherwise you'd just shrug them off as if they were crazy. Well, calling oneself "atheist" is similar.

Some may make the argument for theists as well, but their's, honestly, is a different story. Outside of what they call "divine revelation", they believe that there are natural things that point to the existence of a god. Truly, there are things that exist that make us wonder...the complexities of the world, our own bodies, etc. One may say, well I could say those same things point to evolution. But, then you'd be using the same "faith" the theists are.

Though theists may be deceived in their pointing to a god as the source of all things, this would be the same way an evolutionist could be deceived into pointing to evolution. There is room for deception in either. However, since theists actually have tangible evidence to point to their beliefs coupled with the fact that infinite knowledge is not required to make their stance, I'd say that atheists are the ones that are deceived. The atheist is deceived into believing that his self-defeating position is actually able to be taken.

Answer 5

50- 50. But theists have the advantage in that if there is a real God there, they have more chance of sitting by His side. This of course assuming that the theists live a good life.

Sadly I know a lot of theists who
- kill people in the name of God,
- rob people's money (government officials in many countries),
- rob other people's freedom by forcing their culture,

All of these is done right after praying to God.

Sadly, developed countries also robs people in poor nations using technological and financial advantage; all in the name of free trade. Read Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno. The spirit is still very much alive.

Answer 6

I admire your mind. I am curious about your heart. Perhaps the problem is the same for both, cerebral that is. Christians doubt, the exact same way the atheists do. You are absolutely right about theistic dismay, it a occured in me yesterday, when I heard of Castro's demise. If I was absolutely sure of God, I could never condemn people such as him. I could find no comfort in his passing. But sadly, I do...

Answer 7

Theists

Answer 8

"Why is there plenty hatred and discontent in this subject?" Emotion. this is the clarification why the middle eastern non secular--which might comprise born in different countries and are praciticing (like Christians)--are responsible of belonging to an corporation that has committed crimes-against-humanity that ought to make Hitler appear as if a preschool bully. "Why no longer stay and enable stay, your god gave guy unfastened will." Emotion & Programming. The non secular do no longer philosophize, they respond. "Why mock and talked approximately as theists stupid?" Emotion & Programming. The non secular do no longer philosophize, they respond. The programmed can no longer reason, and that's irratating to objective to have a serious philisophical prognosis with a programmed moron.

Answer 9

At least atheists have the foundation of reality, theists tend to be really flaky in more ways than just their religious blind-belief... nothing is solid or real for them and that makes people dangerously ungrounded.

Answer 10

How do I have no foundation? My foundation is that the only proof that there is god is that many other people say so. Thiests can conviently claim anything they want as proof and likewise dismiss anything against thier beliefs with simple phrases such as "He works in mysterious ways"