If there is a separation of church and state then.....?

Question

I asked a question a while back about Christianty and other religions loosing its rights( no prayer in schools, Ten Commandments being taken down from the Supreme Court steps..ect.) and how it takes one person to day something about a religion and ur not allowed to do it. But when ur gay u have people to fight u and fight the issuse. But thats not my question. Some people said becuz it is the separation of church and state. If thats true then the why are gays fighting to get married when marriage belong to the church? Can't they just be happy having a union in the court house?And if marriage doesn't belong to the church then why is it done by a preacher or some man of God and why are most done in a church?

Answer 1

Great question!!!

Gays already have what has been defined as "religious marriage". By that I mean that gays already belong to religions and denominations of religions that marry them in a religious ceremony. Having a happy union in the court house is actually what gays are fighting for. The term "civil marriage" is usually the term. Thus "religious marriage" and "civil marriage" are the words that get thrown around and then it just gets summed up as "marriage". Is it any wonder people get confused and even offended and say things like "why should my religion be forced to recognize your union?" Well, gays like me definately believe in the seperation of church and state and we aren't actually asking for the churches or other religious organizations to change their beliefs about homosexuality. And when we talk about "marriage" we aren't refering to religious marriage. We're not asking to march down the church and be married by a preacher or some other clergy person. We already have churches and religions that marry us that way all the time. Instead what we are fighting for is the legal right to marry in the court house, to have the government grant us the same legal protections and legal obligations that it already does to opposite sex unions. Unfortunately because gays didn't really define the issue we find ourselves unable to really make it make sense to people. The government still calls those "civil unions" by the word "marriage" and so do all the religious institutions. Thus when a gay person starts talking about it most people immediately jump to the religious aspect. Yet that isn't even what gay people are talking about at all! They already have commitment ceremonies, same-sex union blessings, same-sex marriage, or whatever other terms you want to call it that are held within the religious traditions of most gay and lesbian people (Christian denominations like the United Church of Christ-UCC, the Metropolitian Church of Christ-MCC, and Cathedral of Hope are a few examples of Christian denominations that do this). Instead the struggle is for the legal right to marry in the court house, to have that union in the court house. That is exactly what we are asking for and trying to say to all those religious groups that think we're trying to force them to change their beliefs that we're not trying to do that at all! I totally understand the confusion. I have talked to a lot of heterosexual people who are married and when they realize that what we are asking for is the legal right not the religious right (because we already have that....freedom of religion) then suddenly they start to realize what it is that we're asking for. And gays have tried to just gain some of the protections and obligations on their own. The reason being that we didn't really want to bring up the whole marriage issue, to not try to make people get confused. If a gay person asks for the legal right to have their beloved partner be able to legally have hospital visitations, no one argues about that. If a gay person asks for the legal right to have their beloved partner be included in their health insurance...the same way heterosexual married couples are allowed under the law...no one seems to have a problem with that. People realize that we, as a couple, are just trying to ensure that we both can look out for and take care of each other. Yet with the word "gay marriage" suddenly being thrown around like gays are asking to force down church doors that have always rejected them and thus make them surrender their religious freedoms....well that isn't it at all!

As for religious freedoms being protected there are a number of organizations that exist to ensure that religious freedom is secure such as. The two largest and most popular are the ACLU and the ACLJ. There are also numerous others that are generally human rights organizations or interfaith religious organizations that also do this work.

Gays tried changing the language and say "civil union" instead of "civil marriage" but then those who are just outright opposed to the law recognizing its gay citizens at all said that civil unions constituted a bad imitation of marriage and that marriage is a religious matter and saying that gays weren't asking for "civil unions' they were asking for "gay marriage". I know it sounds like it is all semantics and that is because it is. Gays are trying to gain legal equality and the exteme opposition has found ways to use semantics (word play) to simply try to confuse people. And it has worked because I hear so often from very religious and devout people this image of gays invading their churches and forcing them to change their theological beliefs. Gays respect the seperation of church and state and we don't want to enforce our religious beliefs on anybody (I'm a Hindu and definately don't want to force my religious beliefs on anyone, not even my friends who are of different religions than I am. I have more respect for people than that). I respect those who reject gay and lesbians from having "civil unions" or "civil marriage" (whichever term you prefer) from a nonreligious perspective (and there are those who do have a nonreligious reason for why they still don't think they should be allowed....then again these same people tend to not really like the fact that government even offers marriage/civil unions to people at all and says that the government stole it from religion...but that's another topic entirely). And I respect the religious beliefs and convictions of others and I understand their fears and I wouldn't want them to impose or force me to follow their religion or to impose their religious beliefs on me and my religious beliefs either. Gay people understand that.

I'd like to say that gays and lesbians are really doing a good job of reframing and discussing the issue, but sadly that's not the case. There are so many other legal issues that gays and lesbians are dealing with that "civil marriage" or "civil unions" (whatever term you prefer) have really not been at the forefront of most gay rights organizations. It seems to be more on the minds of those who have already confused the discussion than it is our own. Still, when the subject comes up I try to explain the gay position as best I can. I guess I feel compelled to do so even though I don't consider myself an activist.

So I hope that helped answer your question atleast. Sorry if I wrote more than was needed, I just always try to make sure clarify my points as clearly as possible so that there is no confusion.

Peace be with you.

Answer 2

The legal part of the marriage belongs to the state. It's a binding contract between two people. Currently the law in most places says marriage can only be between one male and one female. Where I live anyone can perform the marriage ceremony as long as there is a certificate to be file in the courthouse.

Gay people are fighting to change the state's legal definition of who can be married. This definition of the law of course goes back to the beginings of the country when most people were christian heterosexual and couldn't even imagine two men or two women wanting to marry.

The part of marriage that belongs to the church is the spiritual part, god giving his blessing, joining two people etc. If you get married in a church you still need to validate the marriage in the legal system with a certificate. Marriage in the church is a tradition that goes way way back.

Answer 3

First of all: there is a separation of church and state. They are 2 separate entities, per se' HOWEVER, the PEOPLE in government and in the churches, they [try to] use their influence on each other.

That being said; the "church[es]" do not approve of homosexual marriages because of the way they interpret the Bible. The state[s] does not approve of homosexual marriages because of how they interpret the Constitution WHICH was written by people who escaped their own religious persecutions by coming to the New World and writing laws that THEY thought were fair and right for them to live by 200 yrs ago.

Basically, the gays are unfortunately, fighting and up-hill battle in trying to gain the right to get married. I, for one support, them getting married. (Over 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce; how bad can the gays mess up the "right" and "sacrament" of marriage?) I find it very hard to agree with people who pass judgement on a person's sexual orientation when they can control it only as much as you or I can control our heterosexuality.

Answer 4

First of all the separation of church and state is a myth. The phrase was taken out of context from a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to a Baptist Minister who was concerned about America establishing a "Church of America" al la The Church of England. The words "separation of church and state" do not appear anywhere in the constitution. Jefferson calmed the minister by stating that our bill of rights (the first amendment) would prevent that from happening since it prevents congress from respecting the establishment of religion.
Second of all, marriage was indeed instituted by God and homosexuals are seeking to destroy traditional marriage, they truly don't care about so called equality.

Answer 5

Because marriage DOES NOT BELONG TO THE CHURCH.

If it did, atheists couldn't get married.

Marriage is a LEGAL status, not a RELIGIOUS one, so imposing one religion's morals on it is discriminatory. Not to mention damned stupid.

Marriages are done by members of clergy because they are licensed BY THE STATE to create that legal status. Why do you think they say "By the power vested in me BY THE STATE OF (wherever), I now pronounce you man and wife"? It's not granted to them by God. It's granted to them by the Government.

As far as the whole "civil unions are just as good as marriages" thing, look up the phrase "Separate but equal" and let me know just how well that worked.

Answer 6

i dont really get ur question ... but to be legal a marriage must be filed with the state ... preachers and even notaries have the legal authority to perform the ceremony ... so in that respect its just a formality doing it outside of the courthouse. marriage doesnt belong to the church and i think if a preacher chooses not to want to perform the ceremony he shouldnt be forced to if thats what ur saying. . .

Answer 7

I agree with seperation of church and state because not everbody is Christian. If your not Christian then why should you have to follow Christian commandments? Why should it be taught to children whose parent's are trying to raise their children as something other than Christian? Marriage does not belong to the church. CHRISTIAN marriages belong to the church!!! There are alot of other religions in America besides Christianity.

Answer 8

You go Sister, great question! I often think of how one woman was allowed to have prayers taken out of our Schools, Now drugs, murder,rape, sex oral sex, and any other sin we think of, and the unthinkable is in schools today. and How do you separate Gods Law from the (state) Courts,Since God wrote the law Himself? Without Gods law there is no law.

Answer 9

I agree! The Founding Fathers meant that the government to stay out of the church's business (the government can't rule the church). They never meant "the church has to stay out of politics"

Answer 10

Marriage doesn't belong to the church.

In a Jewish marriage, vows are exchanged between the bride and groom. The rabbi is only a witness.

Shalom

Answer 11

No body lost the right to prey in school. You don't have to have a group to pray. You can do it privately all day long if you like. What gives you the right to disrupt other peoples lives to pray.
Tammi Dee