Attention all Catholics!!!?

Question

Can you defend a little bit on the Catholic doctrion of Salvation of Faith AND Good works. A true Catholic would know what I mean.

Answer 1

Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification
James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.

Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.

Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.

Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.

John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.

2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.

2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.

Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.

James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.

James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.

James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”

James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.

James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.

James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).

James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.

James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.

Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.

James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is "before men" and not "before God." Scripture disproves their claim.

James 2:14 - James asks, "Can faith save him?" Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.

James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.

James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham's justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.

Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.

Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.

Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).

Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.

Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good "work," an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.

2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for "every good work." Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.

Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.

Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.

Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.”

1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.

Good Works in Sanctifying Grace are Necessary for Salvation
Neh. 13:14, Psalm 11:7,28:4, Isa. 3:10, 59:18, Jer. 25:14, 50:29, Ezek. 9:10, 11:21, 36:19, Hos. 4:9, 9:15, 12:2, Sir. 16:12,14 - The 2,000 year-old Catholic position on salvation is that we are saved by Jesus Christ and Him alone (cf. Acts 15:11; Eph. 2:5). But by the grace of Christ, we achieve the salvation God desires for us through perseverance in both faith and works. Many Protestants, on the other hand, believe that one just has to accept Jesus as personal Lord and Savior to be saved, and good works are not necessary (they just flow from those already saved). But these verses, and many others, teach us that our performance of good works is necessary for our salvation. Scripture also does not teach that good works distinguish those who are eternally saved from those who are not saved.

Sir. 35:19; Luke 23:41; John 3:19-21, Rom. 8:13, 2 Tim 4:14, Titus 3:8,14, Rev. 22:12 - these verses also teach us that we all will be judged by God according to our deeds. There is no distinction between the "saved" and the "unsaved."

1 Cor. 3:15 - if works are unnecessary for salvation as many Protestants believe, then why is a man saved (not just rewarded) through fire by a judgment of his works?

Matt. 7:1-3 - we are not judged just by faith, but actually how we judge others, and we get what we have given. Hence, we are judged according to how we responded to God's grace during our lives.

Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13 - Jesus taught that we must endure to the very end to be saved. If this is true, then how can Protestants believe in the erroneous teaching of "Once saved, always saved?" If salvation occurred at a specific point in time when we accepted Jesus as personal Lord and Savior, there would be no need to endure to the end. We would already be saved.

Matt. 16:27 – Jesus says He will repay every man for what he has done (works).

Matt. 25:31-46 - Jesus' teaching on the separation of the sheep from the goats is based on the works that were done during their lives, not just on their acceptance of Christ as Savior. In fact, this teaching even demonstrates that those who are ultimately saved do not necessarily have to know Christ. Also, we don’t accept Christ; He accepts us. God first makes the decision to accept us before we could ever accept Him.

Matt. 25:40,45 - Jesus says "Whatever you did to the least of my brothers, you did it to Me." We are judged and our eternal destiny is determined in accordance with our works.

Mark 10:21 - Jesus says sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. This means that our salvation depends upon our works.

Luke 12:43-48 - these verses teach us that we must act according to the Lord's will. We are judged based upon what we know and then do, not just upon what we know.

Luke 14:14 – Jesus says we are repaid for the works we have done at the resurrection of the just. Our works lead to salvation.

Luke 23:41 - some Protestants argue that Jesus gave salvation to the good thief even though the thief did not do any good works. However, the good thief did in fact do a good work, which was rebuking the bad thief when he and others were reviling Jesus. This was a "work" which justified the good thief before Jesus and gained His favor. Moreover, we don't know if the good thief asked God for forgiveness, did works of penance and charity and was reconciled to God before he was crucified.

Rom. 2:6-10, 13 - God will judge every man according to his works. Our salvation depends on how we cooperate with God's grace.

2 Cor. 5:10 - at the judgment Seat of Christ, we are judged according to what we have done in the body, not how much faith we had.

2 Cor. 9:6 – Paul says that he who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully, in connection with God’s judgment.

2 Cor. 11:15 - our end will correspond to our deeds. Our works are necessary to both our justification and salvation.

Gal. 6:7-9 – whatever a man sows, he will reap. Paul warns the Galatians not to grow weary in doing good works, for in due season they will reap (the rewards of eternal life).

Eph. 6:8 – whatever good anyone does, he will receive the same again from the Lord.

Col. 3:24-25 - we will receive due payment according to what we have done. Even so, Catholics recognize that such payment is a free unmerited gift from God borne from His boundless mercy.

1 Tim. 6:18-19 – the rich are to be rich in good deeds so that they may take hold of the life which is life indeed, that is, eternal life.

2 Tim. 4:14 – Alexander the coppersmith did Paul great harm, and Paul says the Lord will requite him for his deeds.

Heb. 6:10 - God is not so unjust as to overlook your work and the love which you showed for His sake. God rewards our works on earth and in heaven.

Heb. 12:14 – without holiness, no one will see the Lord. Holiness requires works of self-denial and charity, and does not come about simply by a profession of faith.

1 Peter 1:17 - God judges us impartially according to our deeds. We participate in applying the grace Jesus won for us at Calvary in our daily lives.

Rev. 2:5 - Jesus tells the Ephesians they have fallen from love they used to have, and orders them to do good works. He is not satisfied with their faith alone. They need to do more than accept Him as personal Lord and Savior.

Rev. 2:10 – Jesus tells the church in Smyrna to be faithful unto death, and He will give them the crown of life. This is the faith of obedience to His commandments.

Rev. 2:19 - Jesus judges the works of the Thyatirans, and despises their tolerance of Jezebel, calling them to repentance.

Rev. 2:23 - Jesus tells us He will give to each of us as our works deserve. He crowns His own gifts by rewarding our good works.

Rev. 2:26 - Jesus says he who conquers and keeps my works until the end will be rewarded in heaven. Jesus thus instructs us to keep his works to the very end. This is not necessary if we are "once saved, always saved."

Rev. 3:2-5,8,15 – Jesus is judging our works from heaven, and these works bear upon our eternal salvation. If we conquer sin through faith and works, He will not blot our names out of the book of life. This means that works bear upon our salvation. Our “works” do not just deal with level of reward we will receive, but whether we will in fact be saved.

Rev. 3:15 – Jesus says, “I know your works, you are neither cold nor hot. Because you are lukewarm, I will spew you out of my mouth.” Jesus is condemning indifferentism, which is often based on our works.

Rev. 14:13 - we are judged by the Lord by our works – “for their deeds follow them!” Our faith during our life is completed and judged by our works.

Rev. 20:12 – “the dead are judged by what was written in the books, by what they had done.”

Rev. 22:12 – Jesus says, “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay everyone for what he has done.”

Sirach 16:12,14 – we are judged according to our deeds, and will receive in accordance with our deeds.

Answer 2

Yes, or at least I will humbly give it a try. Most Christians believe that faith is all that is needed to enter the kingdom of heaven (and yes this is entirely too simplistic). Catholics believe that faith is meaningless with out works (although some would say they put the emphasis on work over faith). I believe that there is a balance that can be achieved that most Catholics would agree with. Faith is the first step toward the relationship with Christ and God the father, however, if we hold our faith in then have we followed the lord command to share the good news, whether it is writing a check or visiting a retirement home works is the doing of good deeds in the lords name. Hope this helps. :-)

Answer 3

All the good works in the world won't change the fact that catholics pray to humans, Mary and the so called Saints who have Idols of themselves in Catholic churches. Who can defend that?

Answer 4

I'm no longer a Catholic -- but:

The idea is there can be no true faith without good works. A lack of doing good shows a lack of faith.

BTW -- the person who thinks tha Catholics pray to people rather than to God is foolish. Catholics do not pray to Mary -- they ask Mary to pray for them. Protestants laugh at this -- but then ask their grandmothers to pray for them. Isn't that the same?

Answer 5

There's no such thing as 'the Catholic doctrine of salvation of faith AND good works.'

The Church has never taught that good works get us into Heaven.

Good works are not a separate thing from faith (as "faith PLUS works" implies).

Good works are PART of faith.

Protestants err in saying that good works are separate entities from faith. They err even further in claiming that Catholics believe that good works are what get us into Heaven.

The Letter of James specifically tells us that "faith without works is dead."

This means that works are an essential part of faith, though obviously not the only part.

Thinking of good works as a separate entity from faith, is similar to thinking of an engine as a separate entity from a car.

But it's not so, of course -- the engine is an integral part of the car. Without the car, the engine is no good. Without the engine, the car is no good.

Likewise, without works, faith is no good -- as James tells us. It goes the other way too -- without faith, works are no good.

They are not separable, just as a car and an engine are not separable. Faith and good works, just as a car and engine, both depend on each other and are an inseparable and intertwined part of each other.

The Catholic Church does not teach a "faith PLUS works" idea of salvation -- it teaches that faith alone is what saves us. But one of the essential and inseparable parts of that faith is our works.

Answer 6

A Catholic could NEVER give a truly correct answer to that. but for the Catholics reading this, I ask you...
The thief that died on the cross next to Jesus was personally told by Him that he would be with him in paradise. So how was this thief saved by works?
No, he was saved not by priest, by baptism, by circumcision, by good works, or by cannibalistic monkeys from space.
He was saved through faith alone and the mercy of Jesus Christ our Lord, not Mary.
Stop clinging to tratitions and the teachings of your ansestors and question your faith, look things up in scripture, and go to a better church.

Answer 7

With true faith comes the good works, you really cannot have the first without the second.

Answer 8

well... i dont know the exact passages so bear with me.

"not all those who say lord, lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven"(Jesus)

"faith, without works, is ldead"(james)

"and the people were judged on thier deeds written in the book of life"(revelation)

"in the end, there will be 2 groups, to 1 i say "you clothed me, fed me when i was hungry, housed me when homeless" and they will say, 'lord when did we do that' and i will reply" whenever u did this to others, you did this for me" (says opposite thing to second group, who didnt do good things) (jesus)

of course u probably arent familar with james and revelation, because Luther conviently took them out of his bible.

Answer 9

--is Catholic--

The Protestant notion is that GOOD WORKS are the fruits of faith. This is not Catholic Doctrine. Catholic Doctrine teaches that GOOD WORKS can occur when faith is not present. Catholic Doctrine also teaches that GOOD WORKS are meritious and pleasing to God even when faith is not present. (See Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ott)

The Catholic understanding of Salvation is also radically different. Salvation is seen as a 3 fold thing: something that occurred, is constantly occurring, and will occur in the future. "As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."

In addition, for Catholics, justification is not the same thing at all as salvation.

For a Catholic, justification occurs as a result of a free gift from God that the person cannot earn or merit. HOWEVER, this free gift must be accepted on the part of the individual. Catholic doctrine teaches that the instant of justification of the individual is the instant of baptism. No matter what "stirrings of the heart", it is only baptism that justifies. This justification is seen as a permanent ontological change in the soul of the individual and the individual is adopted into the family of God.

For a Catholic, salvation is a process of sanctification and conformity of the individual to Christ through the sacraments of the Church and the life of the Church. Without the Church, the process of salvation does not occur (as Vatican II said) or as the early councils said, "Outside the Church, there is no salvation".

As salvation is a process, GOOD WORKS are required, first and foremost because God commands that we do good. If we do not do good, then we do not have a knowing relationship with God. If we do not have a knowing relationship with God, then we do not have Faith. That is why scripture says that Faith without Works is non-existent (ie dead).

This however, does not mean that GOOD WORKS without Faith is dead. On the contrary, Catholic doctrine teaches that one may do Good Works without faith and that these good works are meritious and benefitual. In other words, God is pleased at the good things that non-Catholics (pagans, atheists, other religions) do and these things will be rewarded by God.

Why is this? This is because Catholic Doctrine teaches that God is the cause of man's goodness and goodness is not simply an attribute that God is pleased at.

Because of this fundamental understanding, the Catholic Church teaches that GOOD WORKS are mandatory for the salvation of the individual. The Council of Trent teaches that for the justified, eternal life is both a gift or a grace promised by God and a reward for his own good works and merits. The saying goes that God crowns His own grace.

Let me close now with some De Fide dogmatic statements on the topic
The Doctrine of Grace
1. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
2. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man's free act of will.
3. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God is absolutely necessary.
4. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
5. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
6. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.
7. Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral truths.
8. For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required.
9. In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation, to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and moral truths of the natural order.
10. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
11. God gives all sufficient grace for the observation of the Divine Commandments.
12. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
13. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
14. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
15. There is a grace which is truly sufficient and yet remains inefficacious.
16. The sinner can and must prepare himself by the help of actual grace for the reception of the grace by which he is justified.
17. The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith.
18. Besides faith, further acts of disposition must be present.
19. Sanctifying grace sanctifies the soul.
20. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a friend of God.
21. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him a claim to the inheritance of Heaven.
22. The three Divine or theological virtues of faith, hope and charity are infused with sanctifying grace.
23. Without special Divine Revelation no one can know with the certainty of faith, if he be in the state of grace.
24. The degree of justifying grace is not identical in all the just.
25. Grace can be increased by good works.
26. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous sin.
27. By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from God.
28. A just man merits for himself through each good work an increase of sanctifying grace, eternal life (if he dies in a state of grace) and an increase of heavenly glory.

Answer 10

Catholics are unique!

Answer 11

Faith without works is dead,

So if there are no good works, there is no real faith and no real salavation ( in the bible)