Logic/faith? Some Xians admit here that logic+faith are mutally exclusive. Why the pretense then of reason?

Question

Had a load of interesting answers to the last logic question.
The most revealing is the Preachers wife who asserts that"christians do not need to argue because they have the bible...."
Ok. Which bible? And do ALL christians use the same bible? Why all the different denominations then?

Logical answers welcome! Haters save your fingertips !!

Answer 1

I often wonder the same thing. When you argue reason with them, they invariably end up resorting to 'you just have to have faith'. Well, then what was all the arguing about!? Couldn't they just have said that right up front and avoided the whole thing?

I think the reason they don't, is because they know faith is an invalid answer to all questions. It's a very muddled train of thought that declares faith, resorts to evidence, and retreats to faith again. It's pathetic really.

Answer 2

There is only one Bible. What many try to argue is many diferent VERSIONS is really only different TRANSLATIONS. The differences in the translations has little to no bearing on major theological premises, such as God, Jesus, and Salvation.

Different denominations also do not translate into different Gods, only different people. WE are not the object of faith. GOD is. Don't focus on us; we're fallen creatures. Focus on GOD alone. HE alone is God. We all point to the same God.

Faith and logic certainly are not mutually exclusive. But this also does not negate what the Preacher's wife said. She's right. It doesn't matter if we're master theologians, astrophysicists, carpenters, or plumbers. We don't have to have a single lick of logic or reason in our brains in order for the Bible to be valid.

Identically, just because we DO have a mastery of logic, reason, education, science, whatever... doesn't make the Bible any more valid either.

The Bible stands up just fine all by itself. It IS Truth. It doesn't reveal ALL Truth, because there isn't enough room in the world for that many books. But the Bible is more than sufficient to be a basis for faith AND reason.

They are not mutually exclusive and there is no condradiction that would make them unable to coexist.

Answer 3

There are 4 main religions that use diffrent Bibles. Cathilocs use the Cathiloc Bible wich is the Holy Bible + the Apocrapha. The Apocrapha were books that the Cathiloc church thought fit their agenda, even though the could not be canonized, as they were heretical. Jews use only the Old Testament, the Torah. Mormons use the Holy Bible + The Book of Mormon, written by Joseph Smith, claiming he saw Gods word in black slates, inside a hat, and the 'words' forwarded his personal Agenda. Christians, such as baptists, Protestants, and Methodists, use only the Holy Bible.

The denominations come in break downs of church splits. Dont like this, so Ill do this, get followers. Well, one follower doesnt like that, so he drops it, changes it, gets new followers, and so on.

For the record, the KJV Bible is the closest translation from the Original Documents. Others, like NIV and NAS, just make the terms easier to understand, but the message is the same.

Answer 4

Christians disagree on this.

Some Christians think that logic and faith are mutally exclusive.

Others think that logic and faith fit together in perfect harmony, and they think that reason leads to the same conclusions as faith.

These two groups of Christians don't agree with each other, and there is sometimes infighting over this subjects.

For example, British Christian philosopher Roger Scruton believes that taking reason "too far" (beyond where he thinks it should stop, and faith should start) is the ultimate root of evils like Communism and Nazism.

On the other hand, the Catholic pope, for example (as well as many Christians of other denominations), believes that reason comes from God, and that even people who disagree with religion, but who are using reason, are partially on the right track, and can possibly be led to faith by continued use of reason.

Answer 5

This is a problem that effects all religions, not just Christianity. It is just as much a problem with Jews or Muslims or anyone else who has a faith or beliefs.

A faith is really nothing more than a declaration of membership in a particular group. It is usually a result of membership from the birth into a particular religiously dominated tribe, family, culture, or society. All people are really doing when they declare their faith is declaring what group they are members of. A belief or faith has nothing to do with knowing anything beyond what group you belong to.

That is why faiths and beliefs are basically devisive and turn people against each other. All faiths and beliefs on the world stage are immoral because they divide humanity into believers and heritics or apostates. When you declare membership in a religion you are simultaneously declaring you are an enemy to other religions. That is the source of the conflicts in the world today.

Answer 6

If you look for logic, you'll find none.
Logic and faith are not exclusive. They dovetail nicely once a person learns enough.

As for which Bible, yes there are multiple translations. Not all Christians use the same translation.

Why that and why different denominations? Because we have free will and can do as we chose. Nothing logical about that at all. It's all emotional content.

Answer 7

Are the same Xians that are saying faith and logic are mutually exclusive also the ones giving "pretense of reason"? It sounds, from your example, that they are not. Which makes me wonder...what is your point?

Of course people with faith have some logic behind their belief - some reason for believing.

Why don't you just admit that you really can't stand other people saying they have a hope and a happiness that you do not? Why the pretense of logic?

Answer 8

I just see it as human logic, limited. We attempt to explain things by our own standards which fuels our "Does He exist" questions. Faith is an element beyond logic and logic is something that likes to avoid faith. Using either exclusively only allows you to look at things from just one point of view.

Concerning Bibles, I like what williamzo said best.

Answer 9

All (oops never say all) use the same bible. Denominations happen when there are disagreements over doctrinal ideas. Paul warned about this from the start.

The are all LOT of Christians who have not checked their brains out at the door, Thank you very much.

Answer 10

There is a dimension that is commonly left out or discounted when considering matters of logic and faith. However, this dimension is essential to a life of faith. It is Spiritual Discernment.:

(I Corinthians 2:14) "The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

(I Corinthians 1:23-25) "..we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men."

Notice that both verses require a relationship with God, the first being a relationship that is more than natural (that being "spiritual"), and the second passage requiring God's "calling" to discern His gospel as the "Power" and "Wisdom" of God.

Unfortunately, the person that says, "I cannot believe God until I arrive at Him logically", will never find Him. The Bible is chocked full of logic. It is, however, by God's design, spiritually discerned.