Your opinions on Martial Arts formalities?

Question

I train at a traditional Karate dojo. We do all the formalities: bow entering and leaving the dojo, kneel and bow to (sensei, each other, etc.), before and after class, meditate after class, recite the dojo kun after class, and all that good stuff. I heard from a friend who was evaluating some Karate dojos in his area that there is this one Instructor that did away with all those formalities because they were "a waste of time".

My question is, what are your opinions on those formalities?

To me, they are an essential part of learning your art. It is a show of respect for your sensei and your fellow students. Reciting the dojo kun emphasizes what is being taught in class (i.e. not to use what you are learning to pick fights everywhere), and meditating for a few minutes after class centers and focuses you mind and body. Removing these formalities and you're just learning how to fight, without the philosophies behind the art.

I'm just curious about what other people think. And maybe get a consensus on this. Is it a new trend in martial arts in general? Or is it just a few isolated incidents of instructors that missed the point when they were learning their martial art.

I agree. There is a difference between going through the motions and actually understanding why you are following the dojo etiquitte.

If you think that your martial art has no philosophy behind it, then you ARE missing the point. Combat is almost secondary to the philosophy. The most renowned martial artists are very peaceful people, and (at least in Japan) emphasize a warrior's philosophy of honor:
Flashing Steel: Mastering Eishin-Ryu Swordsmanship (Paperback)
by Masayuki Shimabukuro, Leonard J. Pellman

Answer 1

The Japanese traditions are a very big part of Karate. The lack of that is one of the reasons that "American Karate" is frowned upon and considered McDojo's. There is a show of respect at my Dojo. I've had kids who wouldn't bow, or just turn around and walk off the floor while I'm teaching. They were not taught respect by their parents. They learned it from Karate.
I once had a fellow student refuse to bow to me before we sparred. I would not fight him unless he bowed, he refused again, saying that it was stupid. I never did fight him and he only lasted a few months more because of his attitude.
Karate is more than fighting/self defense, it's being the right kind of person. I wouldn't take a class from someone who doesn't understand that.

Answer 2

There are alot of McDojo's around, dojo's that have instructors that aren't really qualified to teach but do so any how and doing this teach something different then the traditional martial art. Usually they don't give enough attention to detail of how you practise form so things can start leading their own life.
In bowing we show respect to each other and to our sensei, in meditation we shape our mind something which is really important in the martial arts. I myself practise kendo where we have mokuso (meditation) before to clear your mind and to prepaire yourself for the practise and at the end you think about the good that you have done and about things you'll be improving on next practise. The sensei will usually give you some pointers too after class when we are all sitting together. So if an instructor thinks the bowing and meditation is a waste of time I think this instructor never understood the instruction he or she has gotten and is clearly not ready to teach.

Answer 3

Someone asked a question a while ago about martial arts being like a cult.

In some places all of these formalities are the reason why an outsider would feel like they had entered a cult.

I am all for respect, discipline and control but these should be earned, learnt and practised as a part of the syllabus and wider teaching. Not in my opinion chanted with blind devotion and no understanding of these values.

They should be practised not preached

----------------------------------------EDIT

The jim R quote below is a from ed Parker in the 60's hardly tradition.

In my school we do bow to each other and before and when we leave the dojo.

I do think that's important to have a physical show of respect especially with sparring.

As with all martial arts techniques to be able to physically do them is one thing to understand and apply them is another.

to learn and repeat - chant a code of honour is to be able to remember it to understand and apply it is another

to say that to go through these formalities makes a student better is a waist of time if they don't understand it.

These values should not be held in tradition but in practise

As far as missing the point what is the point in martial arts if not self realisation through learning (whether through sport or self defence) not quoting commandments

maybe instructors who hide behind tradtion are just not strong enough or know enough to pass on respect etc to their students with out quoting their masters

may be these are not masters at all

To quote a master is to show roots to teach the next generation is to evolve.

To quote in absolute means no evolution did the master really intend this??????????

_______________

Martial arts is not all about kicking and punching i never said it was.
The history and philosophies of the art are important to give the student reason and understanding.
I dont contend any of this just the method of its teaching.
I stand by my points made above.

I can see we probably are not going to agree but it has been interesting

with respect KB

Answer 4

Karate should begin and end with respect.
Without the formalities an entire facet of the art is being lost.
I would not train somewhere that skipped these details.

What is left if you remove the respect?
Please take a moment to visit a dojo (if you can call it that) that has abandoned the formalities. I bet you will notice a general chaos to the training. I bet you will notice a declining difference in the behavior of the students. I would also bet that other things are abandoned beside the formalities ;like form, focus, technique, discipline, class structure.

Answer 5

At our school we do some formalities, but not all of them. We bow in and off the floor, in and out of class, and to our sparring partners. BUT, I don't think that alone teaches respect. I've seen instructors that demand all the formalities, even going so far as demanding to be called Sensei or Master at chance meetings in Wal-mart, and they think they have respect. I've also seen instructors that are called by their first name in class, and have everyone's respect!

I just returned from a seminar, and the instructor that impressed me the most was never called anything but "Bob". He was a 10th degree, but had no use for the formalities. He must have been doing something right though, every time he opened his mouth, I learned something. And his students followed him around like a pack of puppies, you could actually see them get giddy every time he looked their way. I think a couple got so excited they wet themselves! And they worked with him all the time! That is respect!!!

Answer 6

The "formalities" are what differentiate a "do" (Way) from a "jutsu" (fighting technique). These formalities are an important part of the personal character development for a student. And if that floats your boat, by all means study this kind of art, remembering the longstanding symbiotic relationship that Asian martial systems have had with Buddhist practice.
These formalities are not essential to the physical side of fight technique (boxing, or wrestling for example). They are another aspect beyond the physical. Just depends on what you want from your training. The most important things, regardless of the style you choose ? Competant instructor, and train, train, train.

Answer 7

My opinion is that it's silly. I can bow to everyone all day long and have no respect for you. When I was in the military and saluted officers, I didn't think I'm showing them respect. I just did it because I had to. However saluting the flag was totally different. I would be glad to salute the flag and it made me feel good to respect it.

I guess my point is that you can give someone the finger and respect them, or kiss their hand and hate them. The physical formalities are just to please somebody.

If you like that bowing, reciting crap great, if you don't fine. Go through the motions or find someone who thinks similarly.

PS Martial Arts isn't a religion or philosophy, it's combat. All that other stuff isn't for everyone. Just because you sit down and close your eyes for 5 mins peacefully, doesn't mean you won't get your *** handed to you by Igor the Clobberer.

Answer 8

I think the kind of formalities you describe teach respect and appreciation for others. The same is true for social etiquettes you practice every day.

So I am all for maintaining the formalities in martial arts classes.

That said, I have also run into teachers who incorporate these formalities in class, but are unbelievably egotistical and arrogant. So they've obviously learned nothing from the practice.

If your teacher walks the walk as well as talk the talk, then you can get a lot out of the traditional teachings of martial arts. Otherwise, it's just a lot of hot air.

Answer 9

The formalities you mention are grounded in tradition.
Tradition that goes back to when these Arts were formed.
It was considered a great "honor" to train in these arts.
Without the respect,tradition and oaths of the founders of these Arts a person would be training "Without Honor"
**EXAMPLE***
"I come to you with only karate, empty hands. I have no weapons, but should I be forced to defend myself, my principles or my honor, should it be a matter of life or death, right or wrong; then here are my weapons, KARATE, MY EMPTY HANDS."

Answer 10

Respect, discipline and honor are the cornerstone of every true martial arts discipline, and they provide the foundation on which all other learning is built, not to mention that they make for a good citizen and all around human being. The martial arts, in my humble opinion, is just as much about learning about yourself and other people as it is about learning to fight.