CHRISTIANS: how does jesus' death pay for our sins??

Question

i've never been clear on this. if we have sin, then how does jesus' death cleanse us of that sin?? it really doesn't make any sense.

please don't rattle off a bunch of bible quotes to me. i don't believe things just because they're in print. i only believe things that make sense.

he took our place?????????? do you realize how barbaric that sounds?? let me tell you something, if a person commits a crime and is about to be punished, but then another person steps in their place and says "no, punish me instead", it won't work. the judge is only concerned with punishing the person who committed the crime.

if we sin (and i mean really sin,,,, none of this original sin crap), then that means we are the ones who need to face the music. having jesus take the rap is immoral, irresponsible, illogical, and makes the original sin that god gave to all of us because of what adam did in the garden (another brilliant judicial decision) pointless.

you people are hilarious. seriously,,, you sound like satan worshipers,, talking about sacrificing sheep and paying for sins with blood.

i'm just so thankful that the judicial system is not run in this way.

FORTUNATO,

so what you're saying then, is that jesus needed to die on the cross in order for us to trust god, right? but trusting god is something much different from being absolved of sins.

i understand quite clearly the idea that heaven is presence of god and that hell is lack of god, and no, i don't assume that only christians believe hell to be fire and brimstone and all that.

the real question though is one of god's omnipotence. he is all powerful, right? so why does he have to sacrifice himself in order to forgive us?? why not just snap his fingers?? i'm assuming that your answer would have something to do with free will, and as you know, i don't believe in freewill in the common sense of the word.

aside from all this though, it would seem to me that your theory of how jesus died in order to gain our trust is sorta "reaching". once again, there are better ways. only a human would need to die in order to gain trust. god could simply just perform a miracle or two.

Answer 1

Well, I don’t think the idea of “atonement” is clear for many people, Christians or otherwise. And it's not an easy subject to wrestle with, I admit. I'm still puzzling things out.

One clarification: Jesus is not being forced to take the rap. He chose it. So it’s not like God’s inflicting a punishment on someone “unfairly,” the Son (the part of the Trinity we now know as “Jesus”) actually volunteered out of love.

More into the “barbarism” of that later… :)

You and I have discussed in private exchange a bit about “spiritual death” and “hell.” You still seem to be clinging to this fundamentalist idea that hell is literally a pit of physical fire and that God’s simply out to smite the wicked and reward those who follow rules that are simply arbitrary.

(Note: If that IS your committed approach, in light of how easy it is to find contrasting viewpoints in the Christian faith, part of me wants to chalk that up as a “straw man” fallacy.)

Here’s some more general theological background for you:

The gist is that, if God is the ultimate reality and the source of mankind, then our purpose is most deeply fulfilled by being in some sort of relationship with him, as we were created to be.

It follows then that “paradise” would be being in that relationship with God, while “hell” would be NOT being in the presence of God. Follow? IOW, “heaven” is where God is, while “hell” is where God is not – or at least in that state of being where God is not experienced.

The Trinity idea is that three “beings” of identical regard for each other and nature are so intimately in community that they are “one being” for all purposes and intentions. Similar to how a husband and wife who are deeply in love want to “create a child,” the Trinity created human beings in order to “join the party,” so to speak.

But out of mistrust and a desire to feel like we were more in control of our lives, we then violated the relationship.

This is the rift of “sin”: We’ve sold out our birthright, the best celebration and most fulfilling relationship we could imagine, for lesser things that feel better in the moment.

If we do not somehow get past that gap that we’ve put there, then we’re doomed into spiritual isolation (hell). It’s not an inflicted punishment, it’s a state of being that we ourselves have embraced.

Now, Christians even argue about the idea of “atonement.” Christianity Today recently published an article reviewing a few different historical perspectives on how Jesus’ sacrifice has been perceived. I’m not sure we can narrow it down to just “one” viewpoint; as in real life, things often overlap, and there are multiple causes/reasons behind something.

I think one helpful approach is to examine things from the perspective of relationship. Under that paradigm, Jesus’ sacrifice is the clearest possible sign that the Trinity could provide that “all is forgiven” and that the Trinity wants us back in the fold.

Whether the Garden in Eden was mythical in nature or literal, we see that man’s response to his sin was to flee from God and HIDE. Ironically, the offended party (God) still sought human beings out, He didn’t want to sunder the relationship; but Adam & Eve realized they had done God wrong, and rather than admitting their guilt so that the relationship could be restored, they ran away partly out of fear God would hurt them as they had hurt him and partly so they could persist in their behavior rather than repenting.

This behavior is explicitly persistent in our relationships today: We react to each other out of fear, mistrust, a feeling of being out of control, and so forth, and thus we put walls in our own relationships with others. (Just read these forums on a daily basis! It’s nuts.).

So I’ll state my conclusion in a nutshell: If I mistrust someone, the deepest, most powerful, clearest sign that they want to be reconciled with me would be them being willing to sacrifice their lives for mine. Someone who is willing to die in order to have me understand they love me is simply something I cannot push way or rationalize.

Thus, at one level at least, Jesus’ death was the clearest indication God would provide (after human beings rejected him countless times) that He loved us, he would be reconciled to us, and that there would be forgiveness if we repented and wanted to restore that relationship. How much further could he go?

I don’t consider those intentions to be barbaric at all. The irony is so overwhelming: That’s the sort of relationship we would die OURSELVES for in reality, it’s a standard we hold up as a culture – we LONG for that level of trust, intimacy, and commitment in our relationships, and we deeply value those who give their lives for others – and the entire time, the simple fact is that it’s the same thing that the Trinity values and offers us.

The “blood atonement” is another perspective of looking at the crucifixion/sacrifice of Jesus. It was foreshadowed in the OT, so that we would be deeply aware of the gap that we placed between ourselves and God – that gap is so large that, if we don’t cross it, we WILL suffer spiritual death (eternal separation from God), and having to kill an animal each time and persist in the ritual makes the depth of our rejection of God VERY real to us.

[As a minor and somewhat ludicrous example, not having to kill our own meat makes Americans very ignorant of the real cost of eating a McDonald’s hamburger. Some of us, if we realized what it was like for an animal to die and what it would feel like if WE had to kill it ourselves, would be more responsible in how we approached our eating habits; and even if we chose to kill for food, we would understand our place in the cycle and act responsibly. Similarly, the OT sacrifice offered a powerful image to anchor people in the reality of their sinful state. Without that anchor, they wouldn't take the ramifications of their self-centered behavior seriously.]

You can also envision blood atonement as God’s way of taking our rebellion seriously. When one of our relationships falls apart, it’s usually a bit harder than just going back and saying you’re “sorry” for what you did. Usually both sides WANT to offer something in good faith that helps balance the slates out and affirm to the other that the reconciliation is sincere. If the Trinity is both just and loving (just as most of us hope to be), then there is a price that must be paid in order to balance the scales.

(I understand that might offend you on a personal level, but I think on a logical and philosophical level that it’s pretty straight-forward.)

That's probably enough to chew on right now.

As an aside, I don't mind sarcasm... but derision is another matter. I think a faith system (whether Christian, agnostic, atheist, or otherwise) should impact how we view and treat others.

Answer 2

When Adam and Eve sinned, the only way to cover that sin was with the blood of innocence. God killed an animal to make them clothes. God then set down a bunch of laws/rules and a list of sacrifices so people could sacrifice everything from birds to oxen when they sinned. The problem with this process was the blood only coverd the sin, it didn't take it away. When Jesus came he was the perfect sacrifice and his blood had the power to take away the sins of the world. Something had to be done b/c people couldn't not follow the rules. There had to be a payment for sin, because God is Holy and cannot look on sin... so Jesus was sacrificed for the World. So when God looks at a Christian, he sees a person who has been made holy because of his son's blood. Basically, there has to be restitution made for sin. Jesus supplied the payment.

Answer 3

The judicial system can never be like this because the judges can never become God. On the time that Jesus was about to be punished, when He was betrayed by a friend, when He has been given to the people to be judged and traded for a criminal, the sense happens... as you believe, the Bible may not be credible so its content must all be based in interpretation, symbolism and sense. The people who wanted Him to be crucified, the people who wanted Him to be punished instead of a criminal they all represent the human race. Now, how does he pay for our sins? it is because of His death, that the people realized how far this person will go, how evil they thought of Him, how stupid they were to put to death a person whom you or they might never have considered God but still, he was innocent and only guilty because he was teaching and was making sense. after the realization, these same people, followed his footsteps, following towards His path of purity and peace, leading souls (if you believe) to where they should belong. If this doesn't make sense to you, I wouldn't blame you nor hate you for questioning Christians like this. This simple act of me not doing this is the same way Jesus didn't refuse to be killed and punished when He knows He's innocent. I am saved from the sin of hating you and prejudicing you. Peace to you my brother.

by the way, unlike Vishnu or Zeus, was preannounced. He was foreseen to live and to actually be touched and felt. Zeus is the god from Olympus (search Olympus if there is Zeus remains in there) and I don't know much about Vishnu but I'm guessing he never really lived, but he was written about..

Answer 4

There are some good answers here, but they only go half way. Yes, Jesus was the Lamb of God; the perfect sacrafice which God demands in reparation for sins. Basically, when you sin agains God, you owe him a dept. Just as if you sin against your friend, you owe him a dept. Since God is perfectly just, he cannot simply wave his almighty hand and make our sins dissappear. We must make restitution. Long story short, no human in history could possibly make up for his sins. Enter the perfect sacrafice. This made reparation for man's sins.

The question is how do we reap the benefits of this sacrafice? We must partake of it. Have you ever wondered why Jesus chose the Passover as the setting for the Last Supper? He was putting himself in place of the lamb. And what did the Jews have to do with the lamb? They had to eat it. That is why Jesus said, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink. Whoever each my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" (Jn 6:53-56).

Some contend that Jesus is speaking symbolically here. I ask you, how does one eat and drink symbolically? Jesus made the same statement over and over again to drive home the point. The disciples, knowing perfectly well what he meant, left him. The is the only place in the gospels where Jesus' followers leave him. At times when Jesus' disciples didn't understand, he would explain himself. He makes no such attempt here. But, he does turn to the twelve and asks them if they too will leave.

Besides, in biblical language - to eat sombody's flesh and drink their blood - meant to utterly destroy that person (Isaiah 49:26; Micah 3:3; Revolation 17:6, 16). This interpretaton reduces Jesus' words to nonsense.

So, why do we need to eat Jesus' flesh and drink his blood? Because, "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him" (Jn. 6:56). In other words we are in communion with him. That is why the Eucharist is also sometimes called communion (meaning - with union).

Therefore, Jesus body was raised and by partakining of his communion we become his Body (Colossians 1:24; Ephesians 4:4) so that we may be raised with him.

Update:
The judge in the courtroom theory is too legalistic for this application. We do not have a contract with God through Jesus, we have a covenant - Huge difference. By comparison, a marriage is a covenant while prostitution is a contract.

Oh, and somebody suggested whatching "The Passion of the Christ". This is a great idea if you keep in mind that it all took place in the context of the Passover meal. Learn more about that at http://www.jewfaq.org/holidaya.htm#Seder Also try to get a copy of "A Guide to the Passion".

Answer 5

Why do you think he walked with the 12, then 11 for a long time?

Why do you think he died for 3 whole days?

He knew he had to do it. He knew that this was the only way. He not only modelled how we need ot live every day of our lives, but performed miracles so that we could believe.

What is it that man fears the most? Death, no matter what you say. Because when man sees his last moments of life he will do all in his power to stay alive at least 1 more hour. Priorities change when man is at the bottom, suffering to his death.

But, his greatest gift that Jesus gives to us is life with the love we cannot see for we only see love for ourselves.

He died so that there would be no question, at all, that he did not come back from the dead to live with God, in glory.

The sentence "Jesus is the son of God" is so powerful that when you realize the absolute meaning of it, it will change you entire life.

Faith i

Answer 6

I asked this question too, and I couldn't get a straight answer, no one seems to be able to explain this simple equation

Jesus + Death = 0 sins for the rest of us??

it doesn't make sense logically, why not jesus turned around 3 times and touched his head and all our sins were forgiven

apaprently sacrife is a necassary component in forgiveness - which makes sense, so as far as I can figure the whole world had to lose/sacrife JEsus, in order for us to be forgiven, am I right??

Jesus is cool with me, but CHristianity is running out of answers
Turn to what's true for you

Answer 7

First I guess you would have to understand what sin is. I will try this by asking a few questions to lay the ground work for you.

Have you ever told a lie? Doesn't matter what about. Have ever stole anything? Cost doesn't matter. Jesus said that if you hate your brother you are guilty of murder. So I am a lying, thieving murder by Gods Law. Guilty and condemned for my crimes. Nothing that I can do can make up for that. I can never be good enough to make my wrongs right.

Something, someone had to pay the price. Jesus came and offered up to take the place for my crimes, so that I might be acceptable before God. He had to be without sin and he had to free of the crimes of man to take the place of man in the punishment for man. But he didn't just die, he was beaten beyond what any man could take. Then with his back raw from the beating the drove nail in to him. It was a brutal way for dying. He took upon himself my crimes that I might be able to stand before God and have him accept me.

At this point if is a question of faith, to believe in something that you can not see or touch. That to the world is silliness. How else can one understand why God would separate part of himself to come in the form of man, to die for man, rise over death, so that man can find hope. It is about hope.

It is a choice, a choice that I have made. To believe in things unseen, to believe that Jesus is the Christ, the living Son of God. It is a statement of faith. I willingly choose to believe. If you choice or not is solely up to you, but understand it comes at a cost. Many will laugh and make fun of you. Life gets hard and people will leave you and not understand. But if you learn what Jesus did and model your life after that, putting others before yourself. Love others, treat them the way you want to be treated. Have compassion, concerned passion, concerned love for others, it can change the hardest of lives.

It is nothing less that a question of faith, and a choice. No body can do that for you.

Answer 8

Jesus was sacrificed in order for our sins to be forgiven. That is why he is referred to as the lamb. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. We must remember that Jesus could have stopped His crucifiction at any given time. He still had all of His powers and his God given free will. Jesus was obedient to his Father and saw to it that God's will be done. I read your question and I can't help but sense some hostility. As believers we walk by faith. Not by what we see. That is why it is called faith. Religion, although it is all the time, need not be debated. You either believe or you don't. Since becoming saved and joining the church my life both spiritually and financially ( and no, I don't recieve any kind of financial gain from the church, if any thing I am constantly coming out of my own pocket for extra curricular activities for my involvement in the Sunday School and mentoring programs) has drastically improved. If you are at a crossroad in your life, I invite you to study and explore the word of God for yourself. God bless and I will keep you in my prayers. Peace.

Answer 9

The Bible starts out with creation then moves quickly to the Jews, God's chosen people. He gives them the ten commandments and says if they break any of them, they must make a blood sacrifice of their best stock (or other stuff, depending on what they own.) But it does have to be the best, unblemished, purest animal they own.

After a few thousand years of this, God sent his "son", actually Himself in human form, to live a perfect, sinless life, then become a sacrifice for humanity's sins.

He got 'er done.

Then He conquered death when He rose from the grave.

So, there you have it. A perfect and sinless King of Heaven sacrificed his life on a cruel cross to provide a chance for us to claim that sacrifice as our own sin-sacrifice and be able to have a daily, one on one relationship with God.

How could you not love and follow a God like that?

Now, I don't expect this to make sense to you, because it doesn't make sense to me or anyone. Why would God do that? The Bible says in John 3:16 that He did it because He so loved us.

Answer 10

These aren't quotes but I will reference the bible:

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit they brought original sin into the world by not resisting the temptation of the devil in the garden. Christ overcame the devils temptation to not endure the passion during the agony in the garden of Gatsemeny (spelling?).

Christ forgave His betrayers and persecuters while on the cross, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do", and in turn forgave all humanity.

Jesus sacrifice of His sinless Body and Blood saves us from eternal damnation and opened the gates of heaven.

When we sin God forgives us, however we go to confession to tell Him we are sorry and to forgive ourselves, we then perform acts of penance to make up for these sins; however, these acts are not enough to get us into heaven on or own merit therefore we truat in Christs Sacrifice to make our penance worthy. Also we often do not make restoration enough on earth and so most people spend at least some time in purgatory (except martyrs). This is why we have plenerary indulgences, can be done on behalf of someone who has dies or your self (but no other living person).

I hope this all helps and may you be guided well in your search for truth and faith, God Bless.

Answer 11

ADDED NOTE AT THE BOTTOM


The penalty for sin is death - a separation from God. Jesus took the penalty for us- in simpler terms- if I stole something from the store and the way for my name to be cleared was to pay it back twice over, but I did not have a penny to my name nor any way to earn it- it would be hopeless for me- then you came along and paid the debt for me, expecting nothing in return except relationship. This is what God has done- He desires a relationship with us, because of sin , it is not possible, jesus paid the debt owed for our sin- because He is perfect and has no sin in Him, we accept this gift of love with love in return and we are restored to fellowship with God , or in other words our name is cleared. C. S. Lewis painted a wonderful picture of this in his book The Lion , theWitch and the Wardrobe. I don't know if you have read it or watched the movie, but Aslan represents Christ - The allegory is beautiful and gives a really good understanding of the laws God set in motion at the time of Creation and how that played out at the cross.
I suggest reading from the Old and New testament and you will begin to get an understanding of sacrifice and mercy- it is really something that is better understood through reading, prayer and understanding from the Spirit of God.
God Bless you on your quest for truth, I pray that God will use whatever it takes to bring you understanding!


** I understand what oyu are saying- we are still accountable for our sins- we have to repent, decide to turn away and walk in obedience to God's perfect instruction- but by sinning , we have given the enemy legal ground over our lives- Jesus' death was the way to buy us back - it is not so much the punishment for the deed, it is the way out of bondage.
Also- NOWHERE in the Bible is there anything about pergutory- that is a slap in the face to what Jesus did, He either set us free and gave us a way for perfect fellowship with the Father or He didn't- the Bible says he did- I believe He did- there is no earning our salvation or fellowship with God, Jesus gave it freely, now we walk in it. pergutory is a fantasty made up by Dante