Yet another Sept 11th science question??

Question

Days after the towers fell during the clean up, there were pockets of molten steel in the debri. You can find pics of heavy equipment picking up glowing red hot fused together steel here www.911physics.com along with many other interesting facts. Jet fuel can reach a maximun temp of 1800 degrees (not enough to melt steel). So where did this molten steel come from?? Is there any known materials in WTC 1 and 2 that would burn hot enough to melt steel in less than 2 hours?? A radio communication from a firefighter on the 78th floor said this:"Ladder 15, we've got two isolated pockets of fire. We should be able to knock it down with two lines. Radio that, 78th floor" you can listen to it here http://rapidshare.de/files/9140213/FireFighter.mp3.html This would have been very close to the impact zone. Hardly seems like the type of fire to melt steel does it?? How can the vast majority of Americans just ignore things like this??

Sorry, I didn't realize the file had been deleted. Also, I am thinking of the victims families as a matter of fact a lot of the victims families are the one asking these questions. The real injustice is to not try to find out what really happened that day.

Flash point: 38°C
Autoignition temperature: over 425°C
Freezing point: -47°C (-40 °C for JET A)
Open air burning temperatures: 260-315 degrees C
Maximum burning temperature: 980 degrees C

980 degrees Cel. is 1796 degrees farenheit This is the absolute hottest jet fuel can burn under controlled conditions. The steel used in the WTC consruction was certified to take 2000 deg for 4 hours. Note the open air burning temps above this info is from Wikipedia for the skeptics.

The blast furnace principal is highly unlikely. The odds of a plane crashing into a building and producing the controlled conditions of a blast furnace?? No freaking way!! Note the max temp above?

Answer 1

"captpcb216":

You have everything, but the SMOKING GUN ! Allow me to be of service. You need evedence that the metal was melted by an explosive charge.

This is a good time to be examining the collapse of the towers, because we are finally starting to get some cold hard evidence, that show us, how those buildings came down. Here is some of the most recent irrefutable evidence available today.

1. We now have eye witness accounts, from people inside of the building, telling of explosions taking place, on different floors, including lower floors, just before the buildings went down. Many of the witnesses, were silenced when the buildings collapsed, but their accounts live on, in just released radio recordings. (I'll try to find them on the Internet for you. I heard the firemens radio conversations, not to long ago.) They went something like this, "What's going on! I'm on the 22nd floor, and I just heard an explosion." "I'm on 72, and I heard one too."

2. Photographs of the buildings, just before it went down, show molten metal flowing out, from the building. Structural steel requires temperatures, well beyond burning jet fuel, to melt. Further, the color of the glowing molten metal, is also representative of high temperatures, beyond that of burning jet fuel. See source below, for detailed information, regarding structural steel melting points etc.

3. A chemical analysis of the molten metal, found at the site, shows traces of a chemical called, "Thermate". Thermate charges are used by professional demolition crews, to cut through steel beams, to demolish buildings. Incidentally, the samples were recovered by a member, of the clean up crew, who kept it as a souvenir memento. Most of the scrap metal, including the pools of molten steel, were recovered by a demolition crew, and discarded. There are though photos, at ground zero, showing beams that have been shearded at a right angle: Slag is shown dripping from the process. Click on photo, in website below; for a close up examination.
http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2006/06/341238.shtml

4. Thermate traces have also been found, inside the bodies, of those exposed to the gases from the molten debris; people such as firemen and clean up crew members.

I found the following video clips, while conducting research. They do have a bias slant, but they are also very intriguing. Once you see them, you'll never be able to see the 9-ll tragedy the same again: I know I won't.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1519312457137943386&q=loose+change
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4258946892514662399&q

Answer 2

Burns at x degrees in "open air". I can melt steel with plain paper in a brick oven.

Try a bit of wood, now put same in a wood stove, and then in a wood furnace.
If the heat of the burning cannot escape, it will build.
If there are other fires around a central fire, then the energy from all those surrounding fires also enters the centre. So the core temperature of a fire can be way higher than the open air burning temperature of the components.
Given enough heat, even the normal metals will start to burn (oxidize/rust fast at high temperature).
Have you never looked at the remnants of a house fire. No special chemicals, yet the metal pipes are twisted like spegetti, not just bent from the mechnical weight.

Fact: Once we burned a many boxes of obsolete papers, we had to stop when the grate started glowing bright orange and my Dad was afraid the chimney would crack. The heat just couldn't escape as fast as it was produced, and if we handn't stopped then the grate would have collapsed as it softened.

Answer 3

I think you are incorrect about the steel being good for 2000 deg for 4 hours. It may have had a "fireproof" coating that was suppose to protect for 4 hours but those type of fireproofing systems are not always as good in the real world as they are in the UL testing labs where they are certified.

I have seen the systems applied improperly, or simply not been adequate maintained for the environment. The result being they fail when needed.

I also believe jet fuel can burn hotter than 1800 degs. Finally even if the radio transmission is accurate, that doesn't mean the firefighter's assessment of the situation was close to being correct. He may not have even realized that the fire was jet fuel, which can not be put out with water.

Answer 4

I'm not well-versed in structural engineering, but I do know that in any engineering/science field you have to tread very very carefully when applying lab-tested data to a real-world situation. In this case, there are so many different things going on that convincingly proving a Sept. 11th setup (which is what I think you are getting at) seems pretty much impossible with just internet research. You would need pretty intimate knowledge of the WTC structure, material evidence from the site, etc.

So applying data like "building structure can withstand so many degrees for so many hours" to the WTC crash might be a little dodgy. First, there is a degree of estimation error from the engineers/builders along with some structure aging effects that might come into play. Second, I thought that figure was for an intact WTC building (not one that had been damaged by a plane crash).

Also, the steel may not have needed to be brought to the melting point (maybe just to a temp where the undamaged parts of the structure were soft enough that they collapsed).

My point is to question each step in your assertions thoroughly to ensure that your data is applicable and that other factors are not coming into play. I personally think the conspiracy theories that are foating about are quite unbelievable/silly (and not just from an engineering standpoint either). Remember, conspiracy theorists prey on people's common sense notions when it comes to science/engineering. That's how they get people to believe crap like the moon landing was a hoax.

Answer 5

Increase pressure increase temperature. I have seen car fires. Usually it burns up the car down to the major body panels and frame. However, I also remember seeing a special on the Discovery channel about some major 20+ vehicle collision on an icy road. Cars kept coming along and smashing into the wreckage. The cars in the middle, which had caught fire, like other car fires, ended up not being recognizable frames, but burned into mounds of melted metal. Why? because the pressure of compacted cars in the middle was enough to raise their temperature higher than in a normal exposed car fire.
So, yes, the resulting wreckage of the collapse was under enough pressure from its own weight to let the fires act like a furnace melting the steel of the building's skeleton.

Answer 6

if it was still molten red hot when the equipment was picking it up they wouldn't be able to because of the liquid like nature of molten metal. Second as people already stated the fires were contained inside making one big blast furnace with no way for heat to escape thus creating way higher temps than can normally could have reached in open fires.

Answer 7

what is your point?

what are you proposing?

do you think that airplanes did not fly into the towers?
do you think that those airplanes were not piloted by AlQueda operatives intent on destroying the towers?
AlQueda said they did it.
The background and history of the suicide terrorists is known.

why would someone dream up another cause?
(only because its more fun, or exciting, or pleasing, or justifying of ideology)


what makes you think that the maximum temperature that jet fuel can burn at is 1800 degrees (thats simply not true)?

what makes you think that glowing metal pieces were ever molten?

what makes you believe that all this can somehow be kept secret in spite of its "obviousness"

grow up
find a cause where you can contribute and make a postive difference
conspiracy theorists have never ever helped anyone, done any good

Answer 8

just because the steel was bright red does not mean it had reached its melting point. Maybe you should think about the pain of the victims and the victims' familes instead of your silly science queries.

Answer 9

The file you tried to share is already deleted, kind sir! Hmmm..thanks for that insight. Atleast we know a lot of conspiracies happening and the truth is still out there for us to find...but will it ever surface?

Answer 10

Your study seems to be so deep. Thanks for upgrading my knowledge as well. Do you think that other than fuel some inflammable materials might be present in WTC that may help to raise steel temp. & melt it. I am studying for the answer i will edit this. Please don't disclose.