Matthew Question?

Question

Hi,
Let me be upfront and report that I'm not christian. I've studied (and study) christianity and am not convinced it's true. However, understanding what christians think better enables me to understand them and to relate and communicate with them.

Having said that, my question regards matthew 8.
( http://bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearchresults.php?passage1=Matthew+23&version1=9 )

now, the clause "even christ" in verse 8 is what interests me. Firstly its interesting, though somewhat irrelevant, that other than the KJV, most other versions don't have it.
That aside, it seems to me that that KJV is understanding that clause as "don't call anyone rabbi -- even the christ shouldn't be called rabbi". As such, the "even christ" clause in verse 10 (which all versions seem to have) would also seem to have the connotation of "even christ shouldn't be called that".
Or am I misunderstanding the "even" clause?

Any help (with references to the original greek~) would be helpful

Please keep answers SHORT (40~ lines).

(On the side, according to verse 9, how are certain preists addressed as "father"?)

oh, and to continue my original question, it would seem that what I'm pointing out would make the flow very clear, as jesus would be pointing there that all those terms are only appropriate for god, not for human beings (even the christ).

Again, thanks for your help.

oh, and atheists need not reply.

Joshua,
I checked out the link. Also, without wanting to push the issue, I'll just say that I'm not convinced.
Also, I'm rather puzzled by #20 since it would arrive at the year 38, not 32. (Also, if you investigate the hebrew you'll find an interesting reason why it says 7 and 62 instead of simply 69, but I'll leave that to you.)

Answer 1

Sorry for the long discussion, but do you want an answer or do you want brevity? Sometimes you can't have both.

Why are you focusing or even reading the KJV? Do you have a degree in Shakespearian literature? Are you middle English? Why not use a translation such as the NIV that was translated from the original Greek to the modern English? That is, after all, what you want (as your last comment notes). The trouble is that "even" has SO many meanings in the King James era. Many times, such as here, we would say "that is" (ie, "that is, Christ" instead of the Shakespearean "even Christ." If you don't understand the language of the Bible you are reading, you are doing yourself a great injustice. Why not try reading a Spanish BIble??? Better yet, read Shakespeare if you really want to understand the language of the KJV, and I think you will understand your own question. At any rate, here is the NIV (oh, and it's Matthew 23:10, not ch8):

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=matthew%2023;&version=31;

" 1Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.
5"Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them 'Rabbi.'
8"But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.[b] 11The greatest among you will be your servant. 12For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.[c] "


If you are going to base your faith or argue spiritual matters, you should really understand the language you are reading. In other words, you ought to read your native language, not something 400 years old. People HAVE done the translation from the original Greek to modern Enlish for you:

from http://www.zondervan.com/Cultures/en-US/Translations/Stats/New+International+Version+%28NIV%29.htm?QueryStringSite=Zondervan
"The New International Version (NIV) is a translation made by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek texts. It was conceived in 1965 when, after several years of study by committees from the Christian Reformed Church and the National Association of Evangelicals, a transdenominational and international group of scholars met at Palos Heights, Illinois, and agreed on the need for a new translation in contemporary English. Their conclusion was endorsed by a large number of church leaders who met in Chicago in 1966. Responsibility for the version was delegated to a self-governing body of fifteen Biblical scholars, the Committee on Bible Translation, and in 1967, the New York Bible Society (now International Bible Society) generously undertook the financial sponsorship of the project.
The translation of each book was assigned to a team of scholars, and the work was thoroughly reviewed and revised at various stages by three separate committees. The Committee submitted the developing version to stylistic consultants who made invaluable suggestions. Samples of the translation were tested for clarity and ease of reading by various groups of people. In short, perhaps no other translation has been made by a more thorough process of review and revision."


And, it's free online. Take advantage of it.

Answer 2

First off I want to tell you that truly 100% understanding the bible isn't really possible. Men have been trying for thousands of years, and have never come close. In my opinion, to fully understand the bible, is to fully understand God. And I don't think any man is truly worthy of that. And I think if we knew everything for sure, we being tricky, and want to find "easy outs" would, and would undermine God. That doesn't mean I don't think ppl should try. Though enough of my ramblings.

I got the following explanations from www.e-sword.net As well as being able to download the entire bible, you can download several versions, commentaries from very well known theologians, and pastors and such, and dictionaries and other things to help you.

"Mat 23:8 -
But be not ye called Rabbi - As our Lord probably spoke in Hebrew, the latter word rabbi, in this verse, must have been in the plural; but as the contracted form of the plural sounds almost exactly like the singular, the Greek writer would naturally express them both in the same letters.
None of the prophets had ever received this title, nor any of the Jewish doctors before the time of Hillel and Shammai, which was about the time of our Lord; and, as disputes on several subjects had run high between these two schools, the people were of course divided; some acknowledging Hillel as rabbi, - infallible teacher, and others giving this title to Shammai. The Pharisees, who always sought the honor that comes from men, assumed the title, and got their followers to address them by it. See on Mat_19:3 (note).
One is your Master - Instead of καθηγητης, guide or leader, (the common reading here, and which occurs in Mat_23:10), the famous Vatican MS., upwards of fifty others, and most of the ancient versions, read διδασκαλος, master. The most eminent critics approve of this reading and, independently of the very respectable authority by which it is supported, it is evident that this reading is more consistent with the context than the other, - Be not ye called Masters, for one is your Master.
Even Christ - Griesbach has left this out of the text, because it is wanting in many of the most excellent MSS., versions, and fathers. Mill and Bengel approve of the omission. It might have been brought into this verse from Mat_23:10. Our Lord probably alludes to Isa_54:13, All thy children shall be taught of the Lord.
Ye are brethren - No one among you is higher than another, or can possibly have from me any jurisdiction over the rest. Ye are, in this respect, perfectly equal."
Adam Clarke

"Mat 23:8 -

Be ye not called Rabbi. This prohibits all similar religious titles now. It certainly forbids such as the corresponding title of D.D.

For one is your teacher. Christ is the common teacher of all, and all others are disciples on the same level. The spirit of this command forbids all ecclesiastical titles of honor."
The Peoples New Testament

Rabbi=
"G3547
νομοδιδάσκαλος
nomodidaskalos
nom-od-id-as'-kal-os
From G3551 and G1320; an expounder of the (Jewish) law, that is, a Rabbi: - doctor (teacher) of the law."
and
"G4461
ῥαββί
rhabbi
hrab-bee'
Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi."


Now to your side note, kjv, isn't the only one that mentions christ. The Literal Translation of the Holy Bible says:
"(LITV) But do not you be called Rabbi, for One is your Leader, the Christ, and you are all brothers."

I have plenty of other explanations for that verse. If you want more just let me know.

Answer 3

First of all Bible is not written to create any wonder. It is written by various people through centuries. Later compiled in the form of present Bible.

In my view the old testament is the history of Jews and the new testament the birth of Christianity.

Four Gospels are witnessing four individuals experiences while Christ was on earth. What to learn from it is the nature of Christ and His way of handling the matters came in front of Him.

Now coming the point "calling Rabbi" - Jesus means that even He is not to be called Rabbi, because there is only one who is fit to be called so and He is the one who sent me - that is the Father. But many times out of respect due to the news spread among the people that He is the Son of God, people used to call him Rabbi. The spiritual leaders of Jews never accepted Him as the Son of God. But on some situations when these leaders happened address Him as "Rabbi" - on such an occasion He says this verse. Among Jews those days - to be called as "Rabbi" was a matter of respect and Christ never wanted it. He was among the people who followed Him, like a friend - an adviser - a councillor etc. etc. But when a person who doesn't accept Him as the Son of God comes and calls Him "Rabbi" - he is asking him why do you call me Rabbi, because there is only one who deserves it - the God.

Answer 4

Hello!

I'm looking at an Interlinear Bible here (in Hebrew and Greek) and it does not say "even the Christ" it says "But do not you be called Rabbi; for One is your leader, the Christ, and you are all brothers."


Hope that helps

Josh K


P.S. I'm sorry you're not a Christian, and I don't want to push you but if you're studying the Bible, let me give you this link http://www.christiananswers.net/dictionary/messianicprophecies.html

number 20 is very good.

Answer 5

Gotta go with a more understandable translation & one that is easier to read & more literal than the KJV. I recommend the NASB. You can check out this verse at www.studylight.org

Hope that helps. Oh, & it even has an interlinear for your accurate studying. I use it all the time.

Answer 6

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I thought rabbi simply meant teacher. I further thought that was what his disciples often called him. Remember too, that much has been learned since the days when King James ruled England.

Answer 7

There's just one problem!..you say that you're not a christian and trying to understand the Bible, but you're not understanding the Bible SPIRITUALLY!...Because you've never Received The LORD JESUS IN YOUR HEART!, Therefore, non-believers can only go but so far!...Spiritual Understanding Of GOD'S WORD Is RESERVED For BELIEVERS ONLY!....ps. that's why JESUS used parables!...(John chapter 3), (John 14: 6), (Acts 4: 12).......

Answer 8

when phrases are put on the end and its says even its is emphasizing that Jesus is the only master.

Old testament did that when they said I will tell you three times and even four. The fourth item is something to really note.

There were no exclamation marks in Aramaic the words themselves were used to emphasize.

Answer 9

It means that Jesus is not only our master but he is even our Christ. the word "CHRIST" was not actually his name. It means messiah. Let's say that you and I were slaves at that time. As slaves we would have a master. But that master would not be our Messiah. Jesus is both, and more.