Why do people refer to different Chinese languages as dialects? Being they are not mutually intelligible?

Question

For example, Mandarin speakers cannot understand Cantonese speakers. Shanghai-ese speakers cannot understand Hakka speakers. These languages are as different as English is to Norwegian. Even Italian is closer to Spanish than these languages are to each other. Please don't say, "because they use the same characters" since that does not define a dialect.

Answer 1

Interesting question.

It is entirely political. The main reason is that it suits the Chinese government to treat the various languages of China in this way, as it gives the illusion of ethnic homogeneity and therefore promotes social cohesion.

As you say, the various languages of China are very distinct in terms of intelligibility. An excellent example of how politics shapes the definition of language is the former yugoslavia.

The Yugoslav official language was Serbo-Croat but since the break-up of the country Serbia, Croatia and Bosnia have redefined their national languages as Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian - even though there has of course been no significant linguistic evolution since Yugoslavia's break-up and all remain mutually intelligible. In recently independent Montenegro there is now a movement to describe the Montenegrin dialect of Serbian (Serbocroat) as a separate language as well.

To all practical intents and purposes Mandarin, Cantonese, Hakka etc. are separate languages.

Answer 2

They have a common ancestor in that they all evolved from a single source language at one point in history. At some time, however, the divergence becomes so large as to necessitate calling them separate languages.

All the romance languages are based on Latin. After the fall of the Roman Empire, these diverse regions were once again isolated from each other, so the language usage diverged. At first, they were dialects but eventually became separate languages.

English, for example, sprouted dialects in Ireland, Scotland, Australia, New Zealand, and the United States. However, with today's instant global communications erasing the isolation needed for a truely new language, it is unlikely they will ever be more than dialects. Try to understand Brad Pitt in the movie "Snatch" to see just how difficult English dialects can actually be.

The best example of dialect today is Arabic. I had teachers from both Morocco and Syria. The Syrian could not understand the Moroccan's dialect (maybe about 20%, but surely not enough to extrapolate meaning from context). The reverse, however was not true, as Syrian dialect is much closer to what is now known as Modern Standard Arabic, which is what is written in newspapers throughout the region, and is what is used on al-Jazeera.

I guess the fundamental difference is if you move geographically through a region, A will understand 99% of B and B will understand 99% of C ... down to Y understanding 99% of Z. But will A understand Z? That is variance in dialect. Variance in language would be a hard break of incomprehensibility between J and K.

I honestly do not know enough about Chinese to say which situation is more applicable, but if you do, this type of analysis may help.

Answer 3

You are correct that the languages referred to as Chinese are not mutually intelligible and therefore should be called "languages", not dialects.

However, the first answerer is correct that there are political reasons for calling them dialects, most notably that the Chinese government and its people want to make it seem like they are more culturally unified. Referring to these languages as dialects makes it seem like the groups who use these communication systems are closer culturally.

This is not the only situation where the definition of dialect and language are fudged for political reasons. Take, for example, the situation of Danish and Norwegian, which are mutually intelligible, but are called different languages because they are spoken by people who live in different countries. This is basically the converse of the Chinese situation.

Linguists often use the term "variety" to refer to either a dialect or a language. If you use this term you can avoid this kind of discussion.

Answer 4

"A language is a dialect with an army and navy"
Max Weinreich

Linguists have proposed various criteria to differentiate between language and dialect but there have not been ones widely accepted by all. Max Weinreich sums up the political factor in defining languages.

As for the reason why, I think as a Chinese, I can speak from a Chinese' point of view.

When Chinese refer to "Shanghainese", "Cantonese" and "Hakka" as "local speeches" （fang yan 方言）i.e. a speech used in a particular place, the least on their minds would be an objective or scientific definition of "dialect".

It may be sheer coincidence or misunderstanding that the notion of "local speeches" (fang yan) is taken as a correct translation of "dialects" with all its associated deficiencies in describing "Shanghainese", "Cantonese" and "Hakka" .

Answer 5

because they Mandarin is the only official language of China, while all the others are not official languages. Is just the same as in the Philippines, Tagalog is the official language but the people from the different places in the Philippines speak a different dialect, but still Tagalog is the only offical languge in the Philippines.

good luck.

Answer 6

It's arbitrary ... large political element involved

The one point is that the written form is the same, but language is primarily spoken language, in my view.

Conversely, several languages of Scandinavia or the Balkans are more truly described as dialects ... so, a question of nationalism each way.