Atheists, what is wrong with this arugment?

Question

I saw this on someone else's question: (Yes, I'm cutting and pasting and not all of it because it too long sue me williamzo.):
The word "omnipotent" is never used in the Bible, but has been inferred primarily by one of God's Hebrew titles, "Shadday," which is most often translated "almighty."1 However, the Bible never claims that God can do all things.
God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy character. However, God can do anything that He determines to do. (Nice contradiction there.)
Saying that omnipotence requires the ability to do logically impossible things is stupid. God cannot turn truth into a lie. If humans define a triangle as a two dimensional object formed by the intersection of three lines, it makes no sense to ask if God could make one that was spherical. When one says that God is all-powerful, one means that God is able to accomplish all that He desires to do. Even an all-powerful being cannot do what is impossible by definition

If you say god created everything then that means HE would be the ones making the rules. You can't say that he could only act holy (and way to act holy in the Old Testament slaughter fest by the way) when this is a complete contradiciton. If he can do anything, HE CAN DO ANYTHING. He is also respsonsible for everything. You can't pick and choose what you think he can or can't do. Don't give him all the credit for all of creation and then act like the parts of creation you don't like were someone else's fault.

Some of you don't seem to be following me (the person who posted this') position. I think this is an illogical statement that someone Else posted on a different question. The additional details on the bottom are mine but the rest (except for the things in brackets) are his. Sorry if I didn't type this out coherently enough. My mistake.

Answer 1

Your question pre-supposes that an omnipotent God is bound by the strictures of human thought, understanding, physics, logic, etc. Believing the claim that God is omnipotent requires a belief that God transcends all that we know or could understand. God does not fit into the box of logic or possibility. You stated, "God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy character." Do you have a source for that quote? This kind of statement disregards that which 'believers' understand as a central tenet of their God - that God is, by definition, holy, and that any action that he takes is a holy one, whether it be gifts of joy, sustenance, and grace, or judgment in anger, retribution, or sadness. God's vengeance is not the same as human revenge, and understanding that is the key to understanding the "slaughter fest in the Old Testament". Also, I believe that your argument regarding charging God with SOME parts of the world and then stating that others are not of him also misunderstands the Christian idea that God created everything. Well-educated believers understand that God set in motion a chain of events that have culminated in some of the great tragedies of history. However, many believe that he set those events in motion, giving humans free will to live their lives and decide as they wish, sometimes choosing the path which is the holy one (for which we are blessed) and sometimes choosing the path that God knows will lead to ruin (for which we are judged). It is not a matter of blaming God for our tragedies and thanking him for our successes, but merely understanding that he is guiding out future with a plan that leads towards a definite ending - in human terms at least. Whether we are on his side when the time comes depends on the path that we have chosen along the way - the path of faith or the path of disbelief. I write this not to attempt to convince anyone of my way (because who am I to impede upon YOUR free will or tell you how to exercise it), but only to help you better understand the position of people who consider themselves to be both enlightened AND faithful. Some people have considered the alternatives, and because deeply personal, often intellectual, reasons chosen to believe.

Answer 2

The underlying problem of this argument is the problem of all attributes of god -- when examined critically, they are incomprehensible.

Let's step back and look at the fundamental problem. It was quickly discovered a long time ago that agnostic theism is irrational, because it's impossible to rationally believe THAT something exists without being able to specify, at least to some extent, WHAT it is that exists. Further, to claim something is inherently unknowable but then simulataneously claim its existence is self-contradicoty, because knowing something exists is having knowledge of something (that you defined as unknowable). Therefore, religions such as Christianity wanted to assign attributes to their god to escape this agnostic irrationality.

The problem with assinging attributes is that you limit whatever you're speaking about when you say something. Our language is derived from our experience, and our experience is limitations. To say a thing is "A" is to simultaneously say it is not "not-A".

To try to get around this, religions came up with unlimited attributes. But an unlimited attribute is really just a contradiction in terms. All attributes come from human experience, so all attributes limit whatever they are applied to. There is no such thing as a comprehensible "unlimited attribute." Descriptions like those offered for God (omniscience, omnibenevolence, omnipotency, etc...) are all self-contradicting or incoherent for this fundamental reason. The difference is only in the details.

When pushed into a corner, a Christian will usually whip out something about God's ways being "mysterious" ... and we end up back where we started -- an unknown entity has an unknown attribute, but you should believe it exists anyway. It's irrational agnosticism with window dressing. Saying "god is mysterious" or "we can't understand that" is silly, because the Christian in effect is saying "I will attempt to explain this concept by pointing out that it cannot be explained." I've been writing my response for a while now, but I garuntee at least a few Christians have answered your question with some version of "god is too mysterious for mankind to understand"

One of many reasons why I don't believe...

Answer 3

If one was to delete all the contriditions from the OLD and New Testiment you would even have

IN THE beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Because right after that it says

And God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth'.

1:27
And God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.

And the heaven and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

2:2
And on the seventh day God finished His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.

2:5
No shrub of the field was yet in the earth, and no herb of the field had yet sprung up; for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground;

2:6
but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

2:7
Then the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


So as you can see G-d created man twice in the first pages of the Torah

Answer 4

If I wrote the rules then I could make a spherical square, or triange or whatever else I wanted. I could and would also make people out of cheese.

And I wouldn't have used DNA. Too complicated. I would have used words. like arm, leg, head, etc.

Answer 5

As the Dude said - well answered to your own question!

As far as "God cannot do anything that is contrary to His holy character. However, God can do anything that He determines to do. (Nice contradiction there.)" - in the same way as you cannot go backwards in time, but you can go forwards in time (don't say you can't because you are doing it now!)

Answer 6

Classic... just like "I believe in creation but evolution works too" and "You will go to hell if you don't accept God and everyone will know God exists because he created the world but you have to know Jesus first because he is they only way to God and if you don't then you will go to hell... see he is just!" And "women cannot speak in church and they can't be above men but they can minister... " HUH!?! Does this seriously make sense?

Answer 7

bingo, yatsee, you got it buddy. It's an arguement that none of them can answer without looking stupid. Let me guess what one or two answers down from mine will say ....."you have to understand that god loves us and knows best, and when you pray and you don't get what you ask for it means his answer is no or wait" bull hocky-pucks

Answer 8

The major flaw in that argument is presupposing the existance of god to be true.

Answer 9

I have to agree with Atheism dude. You've answered your own question. Congrats! You are a true atheist. We don't wait for someone else to answer our questions, most of us do it for ourselves. And we are better people for it in the end.
Welcome to our ranks.

Answer 10

Woohoo! Nice!