Can anyone prove that the New York Catechism ever existed? What's its ISBN#?

Question

I'm disturbed by the number of users throwing filth and muck and relying on what appears to be a made-up source to try to prove that the Pope is the antichrist or some nonesense like this.

My reasons for believing there is no such thing as New York Catechism:
1) The Library of Congress (search.loc.gov) does not list it.
2) NONE of the on-line bookseller catalogues lists it.
3) A web search pulls only TWO quotes, and only anti-Catholic sites list them. The quotes are:
a> "The Pope takes the place of Jesus Christ on earth…being judged by no one, God himself on earth."
b> "I must tell my sins to the priest so that he will give me absolution."

If the NY Catechism exists (and is anything like the voluminous tome "The Catechism of the Catholic Church"), why are there only these two quotes?

This user cites it:
http://answers.yahoo.com/my/profile;_ylt=ApELH.K3A1Km0ftJdd2WkEgezKIX?show=AA12374956

As does this question:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/;_ylt=ApBWTfu8iceC6daExgGpUKcjzKIX?qid=20060707174526AAdjf5Q

YES THIS IS A CHALLENGE.
You who have made false claims, BACK THEM UP. Justify yourself, or let your lies be exposed.

Okay...dramaturgenrenata, let's indulge the conspiracy theory. It was 'hushed up' by the Orthodoxy. There must be a copy SOMEWHERE.

Dee - I don't agree with your other content in the least. Your assumption reflects an arrogance, Satan.

I'm testing you.

By the way, the reference to "Barclay" - does this have a title?

Dee, if you could figure out the answer to one simple question we could move on. Your 12-point analysis is like a 12-step program: one step at a time. I believe in Jesus and His Scripture, and I believe the Catholic Church supports these as well. You are entitled to your cockamamie interpretation of Scripture, and though it irks me that you attack your fellow Christians you have the right to your hatred and ignorance, morally repugnant though it is.

But I call you on your FALSE testimony. You are Satan, the deceiver. You cite obscure texts that are long out of print (if they ever existed at all) without knowledge of whether it was a Catholic or an anti-Catholic bigot such as yourself who wrote them.

You have no credibility until you prove your case. I therefore ask for the LAST TIME - Produce a Copy of the New York Catechism.

Dee - the fact that you point to false texts in the first place impugns your credibility. Do you not understand that Catholics have been persecuted in this country by people such as you who claim you're working for the Kingdom?

If the earliest text you can find only quotes this supposed 'catechism', I again wonder if it ever existed.

Your Scriptural arguments are all over the place and no longer make sense.

I'll print your thoughts out and help the students in my Bible Study prepare a defense. Several were harassed at a barbecue by another Christian group last year.

Thank you again for helping me to understand that there is no substance behind the anti-Catholic arguments you present, only misinterpretation of Scripture and reliance on non-existent sources.

Answer 1

After going over all that I can think of I would say there is no such thing,but you may find something on it in NEO writings check under skin heads ect..

Answer 2

Are you referring to the Baltimore Catechism? It doesn't say the pope is the anti-christ... Did you mean anti-pope?

Dee, what you're saying is completely null and void. I don't know where in the world your "theology" comes from... You can't quote the KJV of the Bible because it's a heretical work. It is plain and simple, NOT the Bible.

Also Dee, I believe you are greatly confused. The Anti-Christ will SOMEday be a person who claims to be pope. But he will be another anti-pope because no Catholic can be pope and he will spout heresy and tell all peoples to worship him instead of God.

The office of the papacy is the holiest position that exists on this earth. Sadly, the last five who have sat in the chair and claimed to have been pope have not been because of the heresy they say. Don't judge the papacy by these imposters.

Answer 3

I can't find it either. In fact, what I did find was a person who, like you, is trying to find anyone who has or knows how to get an actual copy. http://biblelight.net/Sources.htm (near the bottom of the page). It seems that if this document existed (which it might have), that it does not now, for whatever reasons--probably because it overstepped orthodoxy--and what remains are snippets that have been passed down. That's all I can figure.

Answer 4

Maybe that's right

Answer 5

I searched for it thoroughly myself and checked my college library and I can't find a thing. I'm intrigued on what others have to say.

Answer 6

I want to ask the same question as the user above.

Answer 7

You dismiss an entire argument based on one source that you cannot find when there are five other sources that give the exact same information. How do you discredit these?

"Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'the Lord Pope', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'sweet Christ on earth'" (Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Exhortation VITA CONSECRATA, (On The Consecrated Life And Its Mission In The Church And In The World), March 25, 1996.)

"The Pope is of so great dignity, and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God. and the vicar of God." (Ferraris Ecclesiastical dictionary)

"All names which in the Scriptures are applied to Christ, by virtue of which it is established that He is over the church, all the same names are applied to the Pope." (On the Authority of the Councils, book 2, chapter 17)

"The Pope and God are the same, so he has all power in Heaven and earth." (Pope Pius V, quoted in Barclay, Chapter XXVII, p. 218, "Cities Petrus Bertanous")

""To believe that our Lord God the Pope has not the power to decree as he is decreed, is to be deemed heretical." (the Gloss "Extravagantes" o.f Pope John XXII *** inter, Tit. XIV, Cap. IV. Ad Callem Sexti Decretalium, Paris, 1685)

Since you can only raise issue with one thing stated, I am assuming that you must agree with the majority of the other content.

"Take care that we lose not that salvation, that life and breath which thou hast given us, for thou art our shepherd, thou art our physician, thou art our governor, thou art our husbandman, thou art finally another God on earth." Christopher Marcellus in Oration addressing Pope Julius II, in Fifth Lateral Council, Session IV (1512), Council Edition. Colm. Agrip. 1618, (From Latin in Mansi SC, Vol. 32, col. 761), (also quoted in History of the Councils, vol. XIV, col 109, by Labbe and Cossart)

"In founders and foundresses [of the consecrated orders of nuns and priests, etc.] we see a constant and lively sense of the Church, which they manifest by their full participation in all aspects of the Church's life, and in their ready obedience to the bishops and especially to the Roman Pontiff. Against this background of love towards Holy Church, 'the pillar and bulwark of the truth' (1 Tim 3:15), we readily understand the devotion of Saint Francis of Assisi for 'THE LORD POPE', the daughterly outspokenness of Saint Catherine of Siena towards the one whom she called 'SWEET CHRIST ON EARTH', the apostolic obedience and the sentire *** Ecclesia of Saint Ignatius Loyola, and the joyful profession of faith made by Saint Teresa of Avila: 'I am a daughter of the Church'. We can also understand the deep desire of Saint Theresa of the Child Jesus: 'In the heart of the Church, my mother, I will be love'. These testimonies are representative of the full ecclesial communion which the Saints, founders and foundresses, have shared in diverse and often difficult times and circumstances. They are examples which consecrated persons need constantly to recall if they are to resist the particularly strong centrifugal and disruptive forces at work today. A distinctive aspect of ecclesial communion is allegiance of mind and heart to the magisterium of the bishops, an allegiance which must be lived honestly and clearly testified to before the People of God by all consecrated persons, especially those involved in theological research, teaching, publishing, catechesis and the use of the means of social communication. Because consecrated persons have a special place in the church, their attitude in this regard is of immense importance for the whole people of God" (Pope John Paul II, "Apostolic Exhortation on the Consecrated Life and Its Mission in the Church and in the World," to the bishops and clergy, religious orders and congregations, societies of apostolic life, secular institutes, and all the faithful, given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, March 25, 1996)

"Hence the Pope is crowned with a triple crown, as king of heaven and of earth and of the lower regions (infernorum)." -(Lucius Ferraris, «Prompta Bibliotheca», 1763, Volume VI, 'Papa II', p.26)

"We hold upon this earth the place of God Almighty" ...(Pope Leo XIII Encyclical Letter of June 20, 1894)

"The pope is the supreme judge of the law of the land... He is the vicegerent (replacement) of Christ, who is not only a Priest forever, but also King of kings and Lord of lords." - (La Civilia Cattolica, March 18, 1871, quoted in Leonard Woosely Bacaon, An inside view of the Vatican Council (American Tract Society ed.), p.229, n.)

As for lies, it would not be mine but the original person to present the information - if a lie exists (how do you got to prove the non existence of something?). It is not arrogance, but the lack of arguments that you present. I have a twelve point analysis of the papal system representing the beast power of Daniel and Revelation, and you can only question one small part of one point. If you had perhaps given some reason to think differently, I may have come to a different conclusion.

I do not need a copy of the New York Catechism to prove my case. It is just one of many examples. Here is how the Bible defines blasphemy:

"And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee. And, behold, certain of the scribes said within themselves, This man blasphemeth" (Matthew 9:2 & 3 KJV)

To say one can forgive sins is blasphemy. Why do Catholics go to confessions?

"As the inheritors of the power and authority of the Apostles, the priest of the Catholic Church exercises the ministry of reconciliation, forgiving penitent sinners in the name of Jesus Christ." (The Faith of Millions, pp. 71-72)

Therefore, the Catholic Church blasphemes because they say that men have the power to forgive sins. The Catholic Church also claims to have the power to change God's laws.

If the Catholic Church perfectly follows the teachings of the Bible and Jesus, please kindly explain how these texts fit into Catholicism.

1. "And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men. For laying aside the commandment of God, you hold the tradition of men... He said to them, 'All too well you reject the commandment of God, that you may keep your tradition." (Mark 7:7 - 9 NKJV)

2. "And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick of a fever" (Matthew 8:14 KJV)

3. "For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." (Ecclesiastes 9:5 KJV)

4. "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:" (Exodus 20:4 KJV)

5. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15 KJV)

6. "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. (John 15:10 KJV)

7. "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." (Revelation 14:12 KJV)

8. "Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy." (Exodus 20:8 KJV)

9. "Thou shalt not kill." (Exodus 20:13 KJV)

10. "But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion." (1 Corinthians 7:9)

11. "Such teachings come from the false words of liars whose consciences are destroyed as if by a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and tell them not to eat certain foods which God created to be eaten with thanks by people who believe and know the truth." (1 Timothy 4:2 & 3 NCV)

Also, I wonder how the statue of "St. Peter" is older than Peter.

See, you think my point hinges on one quote of a Catholic document, but I am afraid that the proof goes much deeper than that. Even if this document is proven to be a fake, it does not extinguish the record of the RCC! For the record, I have ordered the earliest book that I can find the use of the New York Catechism in. It should be here in a few days.

Perhaps I can summarize the Catholic view of the previous texts.

1. Jesus must have been wrong because we need the "Holy Tradition," but we ignore some of God's commands

2. The Bible must be wrong because the Pope is to be celibate (Although I wonder why many of them had illegitimate children).

3. The dead are in heaven and can help us now, so the Bible must have another error.

4. It is okay to make graven images as long as it is only a representation of something real.

5. We do not have to keep the commandments as Jesus said because the pope said we do not.

6. Ditto

7. The Bible must be wrong because a lot of people the church has proclaimed saints did not keep the commandments.

8. Thanks to the pope, we can now forget the Sabbath day.

9. It is okay to kill someone that does not believe the same thing as the Catholic Church.

10. If they cannot control themselves, too bad; the priests must not marry.

11. Paul must have been wrong because The Catholic Church is the true church and they forbid people to marry and tell people to not eat some foods at special times.

I would be most interested if you could give me a copy of your defense and its' scriptural bases. Please forward it to me.