Is it ethical to have ones children killed for disobedience?

Question

"If a man has a stubborn & rebellious son who does not obey his father & mother & will not listen to him when they discipline him, his father & mother shall take hold of him & bring him to the elders...They shall say..."This son of ours is stubborn & rebellious. He will not obey us..." Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death. Deuteronomy 21:18-21

I ask this not to justify the proclamation but to expose it & the bible as being at best conflictual. This book was written by failable men that were subject to the influences of their culture. To believe the bible in its entirety is the word of God is a dangerous doctrine & could potentially cause one to do gravely immoral things in the same misguided spirit that modern day terrorists do in the name of God. Without reason and the use of our internal compass we can even in good intent do things such as the Apostle Paul did when he killed Christians thinking he was doing God a favor. God is no less real by this exposure.

dukalink6000, I know the death penalty is common for many crimes but can you cite the passage in which the death penalty is required for eating forbidden foods, (other than the fruit of the tree of good and evil)?

sracl, I agree with you that we should not kill our children, but does this change your view about the Old Testament? Too many people give it too much credence. There are some good things there for such, but there are also other extremely dysfunctional aspects as well. Our perspective about certain "Holy" texts can protect us or make us vulnerable.

maxlebo93, read it and weep. Just look at history. People have done all kinds of evil in the name of God so why would this be excluded as one of those historically evil potentials?

prudence z, I agree with you God does not want us to kill our childern for disobedience. The Old Testament does not prove God called for this. But it does prove there were people out there that thought so. As long as the bible in its entirety is given so much weight it will continue to be a source of suffering...as well as a source of good. You chose the passages, the interpretations, and the credence.

Melissa M, I mostly agree with you however there are those even within this modern day that have such atavistic views. And in the Muslim world this problem is not only persistant but potentially even growing. The dysfunctions of these ancient texts can be keep at bay all long as church and state are reasonably separated. However if theocracies make a come back, and believe me they are trying, there will be much suffering for all.

Cutie, I appreciate the spirit.

Julia, I am not trying to discredit Christianity, though I am trying to be a good influence over how it is interpreted. Christianity means different things for different people with a wide range of beliefs. Ultimately I am trying to break some people out of the box of literalism. Sometimes it is appropriate and health and others times...well it's similar to the dysfunction posed by the question. If there is one semi-common doctrine that many modern day Christians believe that is dysfunctional it is the doctrine of eternal hell. This doctrine has created much psychic damage within our culture and has closed others off to believing the more positive aspects to Christianity.

lcmcpa, the instance of this example was not murder but being a "profligate and a drunkard". This is a far cry from being a murdering please do not purposefully try to obfuscate the matter.

Prana, Here Here. Or is it Hear Hear? Anyway I liked your comments they were in the right spirit.

Cesar d, religion has often been used for domination in the past. I think in part this is what books like Deuteronomy were for, as a spiritual context to take over and assimulate other cultures. It's much easier to commit genocide, force marriages, rape, plunder, annex land, enslave, force conversions, or kill off religious competition if you think God is the one who told you to do so. With that said one can read these texts and take good things from them. You just have to have a discriminating eye. I find the New Testament much more palatable as a whole. However there are a few points that need to be confronted there too.

loveydovey, and I am glad he did.

Robin J. Sky, is it not possible that when in prayer to God (s)he will enlighten you that this passage among others is not his/her word indeed, but someone elses thoughts or rationalizations about God's word?

lifejourney, having been a fundamentalist myself i am well aware of the doctrine that states the OT represents the LAW and the NT represents GRACE. This is a vastly more functional way of looking at things than the ancient school Judaism. With that said i still don't by it was ever moral or a commandment of God to kill ones children, no matter what the context, or dispensation for that matter. God is simply better than that. And to believe otherwise only portrays him as an evil despot. I appreciate you comments though.

Quester, B I N G (O) ! ! !

Vanessa B, same comments I posted in response to lifejourney applies to your statment as well. Thanks for taking part in the discussion.

Mrs. Know It..., man can use all kinds of pretext to go to war and murder, etc, not just religion. With that said a functional religion with functional texts is much less likely to be used as a pretext to do wrong.

Hermione G, and if you and your wisdom know this innately, how much more so would God not only not call for the killing of his children, but more so call for their protection? The functional life scenerios are a reflection of the spiritual truth. No, God did not make this his law. It is only man projecting onto God his own fallibility.

williamzo, interesting well put comments but even if Jesus claimed to fulfill the law and not abolish it what makes you think he was talking about Mosaic law? Maybe his thinking was radical enough to believe the highest Law was not written in any book but could be summed up in, love your neighbor as yourself, and to love God with all your heart mind and soul. If this is true it is easy to see how asking for the execution of ones child for being a profligate and a drunkard is not only immoral, but insane.

williamzo, I'm not sure i agree with you that the civic law only applies to the Jews. "The same laws & regulations will apply both to you and the alien living among you" Numbers 15:16. With that said even if they did it does not justify the killing of ones children. It seems many apologize by trying to euphemize the "law". No, it was often harsh and applied to many if not all, in most cases. Now were some of these 'laws" temporary even within an OT context? It possibily could be interpreted that way. By believe otherwise would polarize people against it or for others to begin to recommit the atrocities as cited in the Old Testament. This is risky business exposing these horrors. But I believe not only are we ready for this but it is needed to stave off greater evils that are confronting us as we speak.

Answer 1

It is never right to kill another living being unless you or someone else are in grave danger and there is no other choice. The bible says a lot of crazy things, things that most people (including Christians) would be shocked to hear about because they only read a few specially selected passages of the bible in church. There is no excuse for murder, least of all God's word. I think it's much more important to follow the spirit of Jesus Christs teachings and not worry about the minutae of the bible. Most of it conflicts itself or makes no sense or is just historically and factually incorrect. What's important isn't what the bible says but what Jesus does. No matter what religion one is, the teachings of Christ are a valuable guide. And if you're wondering, I'm a Pantheist. Good luck and blessings, Prana

Answer 2

I bet you just plucked this out without having read much else let alone study the whole book which mind you takes years. The Bible is the history of mankind and more importantly a guide for our redemption. There are facts in there, and this is one like so many that God did not intend for us. Just because it's there doesn't mean it's got the Heavenly stamp of approval. If the Bible had us reflected man perfect, can you imagine how short the book would be and how unattainable it would seem to us in order to even bother - in fact unbelievable? What happened to the prodigal son. Wasn't he the same sort of son that should have been stoned to death for what he did according to this passage? But his father forgave him, embraced him, just like God our Father does by Grace. Mosaic Law permitted divorce too, but that was not what God intended either. It was written as to the way things were, and God's intentions are in there, but you have to 'seek' this information with a committment or as you do, lead people's imaginations astray, cause conflict and that is a huge reason why Christianity is persecuted. You have to be a man in those days and look around at what was happening, the customs, the lifestyle etc. You have to look what God's intentions are and look at what the men do outside of this, the consequences and how God intervenes to set them straight. You are reading these things blindly. Would you ring someone without first knowing the telephone number? Well anyone can see that you can't do it and so it is here. There are so many of these sort of questions raised out of ignorance and I am not an exception here, I'm a very 'keen to know' ignorant person, but the Bible is a very profound Book and worth exploring for the history, the geneology, the psychology, the phophecies etc and of course to know God. I started by stacking up Evolution verses Creation. I thought we evolved, I really did, but I went right out of my way to really understand both scientific views. I was amazed at the facts. Maybe you should start on something that interests you and compare it to the Bible. You never know, you might learn something. Hope this finds you well.

Answer 3

The Bible only guides us.

It is not an iron-clad, absolute and indisputable record of factual statements. It is not a science book, nor a history text. You are right in saying that the writers, though inspired by the Holy Spirit, were no less influenced by their society and time and place in history than any of us are today.

However, with that divine inspiration still present, we must read and think critically (which few people like to do) and ask how such a statement as the one you quoted is viable in the Bible. If it is God's inspired word, there must obviously be some other meaning than what is presented on the surface, as that would be an obvious conflict with God's will.

Unfortunately, too many people are content with being sheep, taking the Bible's rich, truthful message and ignoring anything but that which they see on its face, having no spiritual mind to ponder and pray over what they read, to know what God is truly trying to say to them right now, in their own lives.

Answer 4

I do believe there is a God or higher being out there. I do not believe most of the things in the Bible because it was wrote by man and his perception of what God wants, stories. If we had no religion there would not have been a great majority of wars from early on till now. Not saying everyone would live in peace but alot of lives would have been spared if it was not for religion. I don't think a child should be killed for any reason the problem obviously comes from within and they need help. They didn't have doctors that could help back then so they just opted to have them killed and say that God told them it was okay to do so, ridiculous!Remember the lady that drowned all of her children in the tub said she received a message from God telling her to do it before they sinned and went to hell and she is in prison now for murder where she belongs, crazy *****!!

Answer 5

Jesus and the Mosaic Law

Many people are perplexed when they confront the issue of the Mosaic Law. How binding is the Law ? Some have said that Jesus abolished the Law of Moses. I would have to disagree, based on the following passage spoken by Jesus Himself:

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:17)
Some have suggested that by "fulfil," Jesus meant "abolish." Indeed, "abolish" is one meaning of "fulfil," but it is also the only meaning of "destroy." So if He had meant "abolish," He might as well have said, "I am not come to abolish, but to abolish." We can assume, therefore, that Jesus meant, "to develop the full potentialities of" when He said "fulfil."

So why then do Christians not observe the Mosaic Law? The answer is that they do observe parts, but not all of it. Some parts of the Law were meant to be temporary, while others were intended to be permanent. This is seen in the fact that before Moses, the ancient Jews were not bound to the ritual commands (except circumcision). If the Mosaic Law was not meant to be temporary, then either God changes or the God of the righteous men and women before Moses was a different god. But this is absurd. We know that the God of Abraham was the God of Moses, and that He is our God today. The coming of Christ made parts of the Mosaic law unnecessary.


In order to understand this, we must realize that the Law is made up of three parts: ceremonial, civil, and moral.


The ceremonial law related specifically to Israel's worship. Since its primary purpose was to point to the coming Savior, Jesus made it unnecessary. He did not abolish it, in the sense of destroying it; He fulfilled it. Nowhere do we read that Jesus thought that the ceremonial law was wrong. The principles behind the ceremonial law are still applicable to us today, that is, the principles of worshipping and serving a holy God.


The civil law prescribed rules for the Israelites' daily living. These laws separated the Jews from the Gentiles, and gave the Gentiles the example of how a holy people should live. Since much was given to the Jews, much was expected. But God gave a new covenant in Christ, and there is now no distinction to be made between Jew and Gentile. We are still to follow the requirements of this law as God's people, but the punishments are not for any nation to impose on its people, because we are no longer separated by nations but by God's grace (Christians and non-Christians).


The moral law is basically the Ten Commandments. We are still bound by these laws, not for salvation, but to live a holy life. Jesus not only desired that His followers adhere to these commandments, He wished that they would go above and beyond them. He said, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: but I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment..." He desired not only an outward observance of these laws, but an inward observance as well.


So we see that the parts of the Law that have been rendered obsolete are those that contain ordinances. An ordinance is either a memorial of something that has already passed or a type of something in the future. The Old Testament laws containing ordinances were not meant to be permanent. There are no ordinances in the Ten Commandment Law.


Now, we must remember that following rules and regulations will not get us into heaven. It is only through the blood of Jesus that we can see heaven. But if we love Him, we will keep His commandments.

Answer 6

The Bible is (among other things) a reflection of the societal and religious rules that pertained to the people who were alive when it was written.

The Bible, not to mention Christianity, both allow for human progress, however.

That's why it's tiring (no offense) to see people cite Bible passages like this for the purpose of trying to discredit the Bible and/or Christianity.

People who do this (no offense) simply do not allow for the human progress that the Bible and Christianity both allow.

Not to mention, when people must go back 6,000 years in history to try to discredit Christianity of today, they must be pretty desperate.

Answer 7

No. It not ethical to kill one's child.
Remember, the clay cannot tell the porter what shape to make of it, that talking about God.
2 dispensations r clear from the bible. the time of the 1)Law 2)Grace. Grace is what Jesus represents, while the Law is what Moses represents. Jesus came to save mankind from the wrath of the Law, which is what u just described. perhaps if parents brought up their children in the fear of God, ur guess is as good as mine.

Answer 8

I've said it before...the bible was written by men thousands of years ago. It was written for that time, and many of those so-called teachings do not hold up to the test of time. It was perfectly acceptable to stone people to death back then. It was perfectly acceptable to do a lot of things that are not acceptable today.

I think the teachings of any religion are metaphorical at best, and those who take every single word literally are misguided.

Answer 9

The bible is real. In the old testament there were some pretty harsh things that did happen, especially against the woman. But Jesus came and changed things.

Answer 10

The old testament is considered a history. The new testament is what christians are supposed to live by.

Thus the commandment: "Thou shall not kill."

You may have noticed, most people who kill their children are convicted of MURDER and sent to prison, either to death row or for a life sentence.