Who is more virtuous?

Question

A man with no faith, no fear of hell or God, that is good to his fellow man. Does not steal, does not cheat, never raises his hand in anger to another, only in the defense of him self or those that can not defend them selves. Or a man who is all of these things because his faith dictates that he do so, and if he does not his soul will be in danger of eternal torment. Is the man who is good simply because he wants to be, free of guilt or fear of punishment if he is not, more virtuous than the man who is good, believing that he will be punished if he is not? Does it not seem that the man of faith is good for his own selfish reasons? No rhetorical biblical quotes please, that leads to circular logic, which leads no where. Logic must be based off of fact for it to lead to a conclusion. Example; fire burns, I can prove this by sticking your hand in a fire. Beliefs are not facts, facts have been proven, a belief must be proven to be used in a logical debate effectively.

Answer 1

The person who is compelled to be righteous is always less virtuous than one who chooses to be righteous. You do not need to believe in God to serve Him and His purposes. I am reminded of a saying I heard once..."It is ok not to believe in God, because He still believes in you."

Answer 2

Well first of all, your first man does not exist, and quite honestly I am not sure your second man exists either.

Take the case of something you can see or experience.

You have two children, one you establish rules for and the other you do not. Both children grow to be the same on the outside, (according to your own description in your posting)

By known things about human nature, you know that child number one does not exist. Human nature dictates that without known boundries or rules or laws that total chaos would result.

As in the days after Hurricane Katrina, and the total loss of rules and laws in those dark days of survival of the fittest or meanest.

Child number two might possible not exist either, for it is human nature to go against established rules at some point in our lives. Also at some point in our lives, we come to understand in our hearts that these rules and regulations have a place in our life and we accept them into our hearts, therefore now making the way we live no longer in response to fear of the breaking of the rules, but rather acceptance of the rules, and honest joy at following them.
So if we have accepted the need for our faith, we no longer fear the rules, we rather enjoy having them and following them.

Answer 3

Using logic I'd have to say that the man with no faith is more virtuous than the man who believes that God will punish him.

However, according to the Bible, the man who believes God will punish him will go to Heaven because he fears and believes in God. The other man would have to first accept God and Jesus in order to make it into Heaven.

Funny, and totally illogical isn't it? That's religion for ya'!

Answer 4

Personally I think the man who professes no faith is more virtuous. If the man of faith only does what is "right" because he fears damnation then he is not a man of faith. But I feel sorry for them both, for differing reasons.

Answer 5

Your question is based on faulty logic.

First off: people SHOULDN'T serve God because of selfish reasons, i.e., they're afraid of what will happen to them if they don't. They serve God because ITS A PLEASURE TO DO SO. How could it not be? Think on His goodness. His ONLY begotten Son died for us, so that we might be redeemed, what a thing to give up for people who often cursed His very name. He loved us when no one else did, He forgives us even tho we're not perfect, He wants to love and cherish us, accepting us as His spiritual children. Sometimes just thinking of His goodness can move you to tears. Selfish reasons, I don't think so. There is NO POSSIBLE way we can ever thank God for kindness and love. We could spend eternity just praising Him and it wouldn't be enough.

As far as the man with no faith, how could he possibly be happy with nothing to believe in? Are you ever happy without believing in something, even if its just a hobby, education or yourself?

Answer 6

Well true faith would want you to do good, not for your own benefit, but for the glory of God. SO that others can see through you the goodness that is God. So while there are those who do good out of FEAR, there are those who do good for the right reasons-to lead others to Christ and exeplify the changes that Christ can bring in to your life when you accept him. Doing good out of fear for your soul is still GOOD however it is good that was inspired by not the most perfect of thought processes.......however good that is done to show the light of God is true, selfless good.

Answer 7

Virtue has nothing to do with faith.
We are all human and it is our nature to want to protect and survive. That's why we're not all running around killing each other - self-preservation.
People might claim to be virtuous in the name of religion or non-religion but I think that it exists outside of that and has done since life evolved on this planet.

Answer 8

God loves atheists, they live on what he gave them (intelligence, logic, reason, etc.). And, fear of (eternal) punishment or hope for reward does not motivate them.

Atheism, the only logical choice.

Answer 9

Any man or woman who works for the improvement of his/her fellow human beings.

Whether it is of free will or forced upon them by their religious beliefs.

When I say improving I am not saying AT all "Bring them to Jesus." The purpose of religion is controling the human mind and pocketbook.

Answer 10

very well put, the man with no faith I think is more virtuous
BUT, can a personality trait be overcome if somebody truly had desire to be morally conscience, is it possible to change a persons nature or do they just get better at being a liar

Answer 11

If you're doing things just because you want to, that is a great and wonderful thing. People who do this still have their rewards from God.
Both, I believe, are equally virtuous. The Bible says love one another as yourself, not more than and not less than. Whether you're helping people because you want to or because you're told to, you're still obeying one of the two Great Commandments.
God is far above us, and He is not nearly as judmental as people make Him out to be. He does not judge us on the grounds that we as humans judge ourselves and one another. He judges us by our hearts, our souls, and the way we live our lives. Even sinners can be saved. He loves all of us and gives everyone every chance He can to come to Him, so that we may live with Him in Heaven, and we may receive of Him eternal glory.
You also have to understand that sincere people of faith do not do these things out of their own selfish needs. It's not because we believe that we have to in order to not suffer for all eternity. Otherwise, what kind of faith is that? You're basically saying that God is merciful and gracious and loving, yet He will bestow upon you a thousand curses or whatever if you don't do everything He says. Everyone sins. It is in our nature. Don't you think that He knew that and knew what was going to happen long before He put us on this earth. His intellegence and love and understanding are far beyond that of human understanding. True people of faith do what they can to help others out of love for them and love for God. We want to glorify God and do what it is that He created us for...not look out for ourselves and do what we have to to get by. If you're only looking out for yourself, God sees that, and you're not truly honoring the commandment, for you're not doing it out of love for them...only out of love for yourself. Selfish greed does not equal love or faith.