The Battle of the Teutoburg Forest . . .?

Question

Would the Romans have cemented their hold on all of Germania if Publius Quinctilius Varus had not lost three Roman legions to Arminius and his Germanic tribal confederation in 9 AD? I wonder how European history would have changed?

Answer 1

It depends, the Roman- German relationship was cordial at most of the points of time as Tacitus notes the tribal system of the Germans, using roman coinage and other trade. It is true Roman attempts to subjugate them by force led to mixed results Dacia and the example mentioned. We see in Caesar Gallic wars using patronae of one side to weaken the other. This lesson of patronage continued, in fact a German warlord would have much to profit from being a Roman client and cementing his own foot hold, unfortunatly for Rome the ideas of statehood and patronage didnt extend to the rest of the tribe, and after the family line was extinguished the clientage was over. Pannonia is a example used of how Roman trade linked with Germanic trade and how proffitable co-operation rather than war became at least in upper babaric terriotories. This seemed to hold fast for Rome itself keeping the tribes at war and gaining clients, thus roman influenece spread beyond the physical boundaries. The examples of patronage can be seen in the later empire and the increase use of admittance of Germanic tribesman into the Roman army and their willingness to join. In this later period in Pannonia we find tomb stones with quasi roman-germanic names, showing a desire for admittance and actual acceptance into the empire.
As for Varus, losing three legions was amazing no doubt. I should note there was very little to gain by conquering these hardy and barbaric tribes people. Rebellion would have occured constantly if what we hear from Tacitus Germania is half true and the wars would have not gone in Romes favour, too dense forest as we have seen in Varus. The decision to stop the empire and adopt a patronage system seems to have worked.
I think the real issue is whether the european civilisation would have changed if Rome had lasted without babaric invasions. Well it seems the empire was fraying at the seems, disunity in the provinces and I find it Ironic that the west was dividing into sub-kingdoms before the invasions. I think the various Babaric tribe peoples picked up where the Romans left off, continuing speratism within the west in light of a failing economy, they just cemented it. Even Rome was no longer the seat of power, somehow I dont think it would have changed that much and the babarians did there best to secure their own territories.

Answer 2

What if questions are always fun because there is no way to know for sure what would have happened. They probably would have went on to cement control of Germania as you suggest. This raises another big what if though, without the added pressure of the northern tribes would Rome have been able to focus its attention directly at the rising threats in the east? The concentrated might of the Empire may have crushed the eastern forces which would have thus put them in a better position to deal with the Huns because the Goths, Visigoths, Ostragoths, etc. would have presumably been already a part of Roman territory. The repercussions are endless . . . without the societal pressures of the 2nd and 3rd cent would Christianity have become the dominant religion of the Empire? Would the Empire have split into two, dooming the western half? Augustus probably wondered as much when he mourned the loss of his legions . . . "Varus, give me back my legions!!!!!"

Answer 3

After the defeat the Roman Emperors sent several punitive expeditions into the Rhine to recover the legionary eagles and to punish the German tribes. As of 180 AD we still find the Romans trying to gain control of the area with limited success. Commodus pulled back the lines after his father died due to fighting what I assume was a losing battle. In conclusion, if Varus had not lost his legions, the Romans would still have run into problems down the line.

Answer 4

Teutonburg forest was only a temporary setback for the romans,what it did was force the romans to accept the Rhine as the northern boundary of the empire. I think that a lose by Arminius would have had little effect on European history, the empire still had 350 years to dominate Europe.

Answer 5

I doubt whether history would've changed much. The germanic tribes eventually overran all of Gaul and were incorporated into the Roman legions to an extent, especially helpful in defeating Attila in 451 (or sometime in that period).

In my opinion, all the roman defeat meant was the the River Elbe was not to be the furthest extent of their empire. The Romans later avenged the defeat of the 3 Legions but still could not extend their reach to the Elbe. If they had won at Teutoburg, it would've hastened the co-opting of the germanic tribes into roman civilization.

Answer 6

I don't know because by the time of Marcus Aurelius they more or less had control of that area, or at least had it pacified.

The battle was however a major embarrassment as they lost the legionary standards to the Germans and that had only happened one other time in Roman History, i believe.

Answer 7

All of Europe, right up to the Caucasus Mountains.

Answer 8

if bigus dicus and his wife incontinetia buttocs had been in charge none of the above would have happened

Answer 9

I never thought of it like that!

Answer 10

I agree with DUDE