Who’s the best thoroughbred in American racing history (after the BIG 3)?

Question

Most people say Man O’War #1, Secretariat #2, and Citation #3
Or
Secretariat #1, Man O’War #2, and Citation #3

After that it becomes subjective and blurred so who is your #4…and your #1 #2, and #3?

Is #4…Dr Fager, The Bid, Kelso, Slew, Count Fleet, or Native Dancer…or other?

To Greyt-mom below:

You don't think Man O'War is top 10 material????

To Birddawg below: Native Dancer had longetivity?? Kelso yes, but Native Dancer NO. I think you might have him confused with Forego. Forego had longetivity like Kelso. Native Dancer ran for just 3 years I believe with only 1 loss (to Dark Star).

To Jan H: I believe Forego was also in that 73 Derby with Secretariat and Sham. A pretty devastating field looking back on it.
Talking about studs do you think Bold Ruler should be in that group you mentioned? How about the top studs now like Storm Cat, and my beloved AP INDY??
Are they the best right now?? By far??

Answer 1

Tough choices but I will say Seattle Slew

Answer 2

The best was Secretariat, then Man O War probably, Citation is debatable, and is NOT a clear cut #3. Very difficult, but may have to say 3rd is possibly Dr. Fager. Citation makes his case for that third spot. At Santa Anita, Spectacular Bid gets 3rd place, hes unbeatable at Santa Anita. Its not Kelso or Native Dancer, thats like voting Pete Rose or Nolan Ryan as one of the greatest hitters or pitchers, they had longevity. Seattle Slew and Count Fleet Id say are even, and Id put them around 5/6. Maybe Damascus?

To GreyTMom: I have a book of past performances of champions, and Kelso is no doubt talented, and in the top 10-15 of all time for sure. But #1? I dont think so. Theres no way hes better than Secretariat. Maybe as you shift the distances out to marathon distance he gains an edge. He does appear to be undefeated 4/4 at 2 miles. I have no doubt he would put away Dr. Fager at 1 1/2 miles, and he gets points for running well on turf too. But Secretariat can run 1 1/2 too and on turf too, he ran 224 on dirt, which is much harder to do than 223 and 4 on Turf. Not only that but Secretariats last two turf races were amazing and showed how great he was.

To GGthekid: Re Native Dancer, I guess what I meant was that he is getting points for being undefeated, rather than true ability. Hes up there for sure. I just dont see those devastating victories, he lost the derby by a head, won the PReakness by a neck, won the Belmont by a neck.

side note: Man O War is devastating, but two things prevent me from putting him at #1. He never ran on turf. He may have been great, who knows? But since he never tried it, and Secretariat did, have to deduct points. Secondly, it was such a different time, that its difficult to measure how good he really was. Yes, he destroyed the competition, but how good was the competition back then? Its at least possible Man O War would have beaten Secretariat, so theres that mystery factor, maybe he was the greatest of all time. But theres too much uncertainty to give him clear cut #1.

Answer 3

The top 3 are pretty well accepted. But from there a lot of horses deserve mention. In HISTORY - no particular order
Colin
Spectacular Bid
Cigar
Native Dancer
Dr Fager
Seattle Slew

I think the off the track bear mention too - Mr Prospector was hugely overshadowed on the track. Few remember he was a Derby horse because he was SO overlooked in history - he chased Secretariat and Sham. Northern Dancer and Alydar were also tough horses on the track but like MrP the real talkin' came with what they sired. Their impact on racing is far reaching.

Answer 4

Nothern Dancer might have been one of the great ones. Not only did he break the Kentucky Derby time record, which held up until Secretariat, he won the Preakness, then won the Queen's Plate in Canada (he was Canadian bred), THEN lost to a very deep field in the Belmont, where he broke down.

He was the champion sire for the longest time, but one has to wonder, if he didn't run in the Queens Plate would he have won the triple crown.

Also, Ruffian might have been one of the great ones, even though she was a filly.

Nothing wrong with Affirmed either.

Answer 5

#1 Kelso - I completely disagree with the above poster who says Kelso gets mentioned solely for his longevity. After he retired Eddie Arcaro consistantly called Kelso the best horse he'd ever ridden. Kelso currently holds the American record for 2 miles on dirt, he set a track record at Laurel going 1 1/2 miles on the turf in 2:23.4 at age 7 (at the time it was the fastest 1 1/2 miles on any surface in America). In his prime years at 3,4 he started 18 times, winning 15 and running second once. As he aged he often was not as consistant but still had an explosive turn of foot on his good days.

#2 Dr. Fager - His record speaks for itself, he was sheer speed.

#3 Secretariat - He was awesome at 2-3, I'd rank him higher if we saw him at 4.
#4 Damascus - #2 2,4,5 were unparalled on track, hard to separate them here.
#5 Buckpasser
#6 Native Dancer - should have been undefeated.
#7 Citation - was brilliant and consistant.
#8 Spectacular Bid - one amazing horse who probably didn't get his due while running but history looks back fondly on him.
#9 Swaps - Set 4 World records, equaled a fifth.
#10 Nashua - #9's arch rival was great in his own right.


ETA: Regarding Man O' War, I honestly believe the horse was more legend than fact. His record is amazing, it's true. Looking on paper his past performances are one big win after another. However delving deeper the question ultimately becomes who did he beat? Off the top of my head I think MOW ran at least 8 races where he had 0-1 opponent. Overall MOW was an obvious standout in his crop....of 1,680 registered foals. For comparison Secretariat was an obvious standout in his crop of 24,361 registered foals. And in 1989 when there were two amazing three year olds they were ranked #1,2 out of 51,296. Is it possible that, had Man O' War come along 20 years later, he still would have been once defeated? Sure. But I have trouble saying that a horse who only stepped out of age restricted races once, who routinely faced miniscule, obviously overmatched fields is unequivocally the best ever. When I get to Heaven and see him kicking butt I'll change my opinion but until then I just can't rank him in my Top 10. As an aside, I was always more impressed with Man O' War's breeding record. His stallion book was limited to 25 mares per year, most of which were Sam Riddle's own mares. Yet he still sired some wonderful racers and his fillies produced many more.

As for Kelso being #1 that's my personal opinion. I certainly can understand the case for Secretariat (or Dr. Fager, Spectacular Bid, etc.). Kelso was an amazing handicapper at a time when that title was equated with 130-140+ weight assignments. Eddie Arcaro always said he tried to hold Kelso back and not win by much to avoid higher weight assignments. Nevertheless most of Kelso's biggest wins were done under 130lb+ weight assignments. He set/equalled several American records from 9-16f and numerous other track and stakes marks. And, as I said in my first post he did this at an age when most horses had long since retired.

The question "who's the best" is really a subjective one. I think Secretariat probably had 'the best' three year old season ever. Dr. Fager was probably the most brilliant. If the original question had been who would win a race matching the top 25 of all time I don't know that Kelso would be my pick. But his combination of speed, stamina, weight-carrying ability, versatility and yes, durability gave him the most unique and impressive body of work by any major thoroughbred (IMHO), so I'd rank him as "the best".

Answer 6

For sheer brilliance, there was never a racehorse as fast as Swaps. He won the Kentucky Derby in 1955,beating Nashua, but did not run in the other claasics. Once ran 11/16 miles in 1:39. Was injured in a subsequent match race against Nashua

Answer 7

Kelso would be my bet,
but let's not forget Exceller- the only horse to defeat two Triple crown winners in one race! He trashed both Seattle Slew and Affirmed in the Jockey Club Gold Cup.

I have a soft spot for Ruffian, too.
She was never headed in her life while she was in one piece.
I wish we could have had her longer to see what she was really capable of when mature.

Answer 8

I think Secretariet is the most famous, then Man O'War, then Native Dancer, then Count Fleet, then Seattle Slew, but that's just me.

Answer 9

1) Meadow star , 2) Nothern Dancer, 3) Count fleet

Answer 10

Ruffian, Cigar, Rick's Natural Star

Answer 11

Northern Dancer has got to be up there!!!

Great horse until he broke down.

His stud activities speak for themselves. Champion Sire and his son now carries this on in Saddlers Wells.

Racing would not have been where it is today with out him!!!